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The player sales model debate is an interesting one. For me, it's not a precarious model by any means. And I'd suggest that it demonstrably works. We're in a situation where the club doesn't urgently need outside investment - it would just be preferable. Our model ensures that it's unlikely that the hypothetical gap outlined in the Well Society's consultation earlier in the year, and the hypothetical gap that is the very reason for courting external investment in the first place, will, based on the experience of fan-ownership to date, materialise. It never has under fan-ownership and, even if it did, the Well Society has enough funding to cover that gap as a one-off. The issue would be if something that has yet to happen didn't just happen one year, but two in quick succession. Of course, nothing is impossible in football. Over the same time period that fan-owned Motherwell has remained in the division, reached cup finals, and made Europe, clubs with bigger resources such as Hearts, Hibernian and Dundee United have all been relegated. So it's a duty of the club to at least recognise that hypothetical gap and see if there's a more productive way to eradicate it, other than relying on the Well Society to plug it if it happens once, and then to probably slash our playing budget if it happens again in quick succession (before the Society has built up the safety net again). But in terms of our model, David Turnbull always gets picked out as a seeming "anomaly" but in reality, he's the result of an effective player sales model. Since fan-ownership came into being, we have - purely off the top of my head, so there'll probably be others I miss - sold, for cash, guys like Louis Moult, Cedric Kipre, Kevin van Keen, Sondre Solholm Johansen, James Scott & Ben Heneghan. We could have, had we tied them down on contracts, added Chris Cadden, Allan Campbell, Jake Hastie, Dean Cornelius & Max Johnston to that list. However, the compensation for each still numbers in the hundreds of thousands meaning that, collectively, that's still well over £1m. We will probably sell Theo Bair on for a relatively decent fee in the summer, January, or next summer, while at the same time, Lennon Miller will almost certainly go for a price that you could perhaps list alongside the Turnbull fee. In terms of any investment meaning a change from that model and the ability to keep our best players, I would argue that is incredibly unlikely, if not impossible. The player sales model is only partly because of a financial need, it's also largely because of the club's stature in world football. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it was confirmed at the AGM by the club that no investment offer is transformational, meaning that there would be no change to the model. In fact, you could argue that, if any investor was keen on getting a return on their investment, the player sales model could become even more important in that situation. The only way in which our model ceases to be our model that I can see is if we ended up with an incredibly unlikely Colin & Christine Weir scenario where a diehard Motherwell fan wins the Euromillions and wants to just chuck cash at the club. But even in that situation, where you don't necessarily need to sell players, players would still be sold - because the best guys will always want to move on to play at perceived bigger clubs or in better leagues, regardless of how much cash you're able to throw at them. The player sales model at Fir Park has been in place, and worked successfully, before fan-ownership, has worked under fan-ownership, and will continue to work regardless of whether the club is owned by the fans, an external investor, or a hybrid of the two. Personally, I think it's both a successful model that we should be positive about, because we're good at it, and a model that will be integral to the club whether we like it or not anyway.

Nope. We got peak Kev in his last season. Given his age and his normal goal scoring form of single digit seasons, I never wanted him back. Just bask in his record breaking season and look forward to the next Kev we uncover. I'd be happier if we kept Vale for next season.

Thanks Theo nice to see your backing yourself, self confidence is important.

At the financial levels we operate at re wages etc £750k would fund possibly 4 or 5 players, so it's very decent cash to a club like ours. And the bigger English clubs know this all too well, it's small change to them.

This is it exactly for me. The club has always (since administration etc. anyway) operated under a model where we need to sell a player every other year to keep the books balanced, or sell a Turnbull every three or so. The WS' funds essentially became a way for the club to keep things balanced in leaner times after Les came in, and that's absolutely worked and kept the club afloat. I would argue that's not necessarily true fan ownership, which is why I'm intrigued to see what the new WS board have to offer in terms of growing that to something even more meaningful. However, there's also no reason that the work they're doing can't be done alongside an investor who wants to work with the WS to do that, using their own business experience and skills to supplement what is already there. My line in the sand for all of this has always been 51/49 ownership in favour of the fans. If it goes beyond that (even if it takes years, or is performance based etc.) it's a no from me. Also, there is far, far more to any potential takeover than can be acutely summarised on a forum like this. Like I'm enjoying the debate and discussion but we also need to know a significant amount of what we're reading here and in the press is speculation. e.g. The actual, financial valuation of the club and its assets (rather than the emotional one we as fans put on it) calculated by forensic accountants/finance specialists and then adding in any potential clauses the WS want around ensuring that if they lost majority ownership, there is first refusal on the investor's shares if/when they choose to go or sell up. This is all, of course, dependent on it getting to the stage of there being an actual offer for the club that the Exec Board deems worth considering. Exclusivity of negotiations doesn't guarantee that will happen. One (final, I promise) point; none of the potential investors we have attracted so far are offering to put "transformational" amounts of money into the club. So whatever happens in that regard, I believe the WS will have to continue in some capacity to support the club in leaner times. Like you said @joewarkfanclub we need to be very careful when coming to a decision. Personally, I think there is a model where the WS and any investor(s) could work together (whilst the WS/fans retains majority ownership under whatever structure is negotiated) to build the former and help the latter get a return on their investment, leaving the club in a stronger position than it was. There is nuance to that which will take time to work out, if it is indeed an option, but the devil, as always, will be in the detail.

You ever get the feeling where I wish I hadn't mentioned it!! Cheers Mr Cowan 😜😜

Probably something to do with his 204 career goals vs Theo's 21.

Ominous. I'll no sleep tonight.

This all day long. We need to ditch the weird formation and get our best players playing in their best positions. Vale is great with his back to goal and holding the ball up and playing others in. Bair is better running in behind. Davor runs around and breaks shit up. Miller and Spittal are both best at controlling the tempo and picking a pass. Gent is great at beating his man and driving crosses across the 6 yard box. Just do that. And if the defence could maybe not chuck any in our own net that would be grand!

Interesting reading here for sure, and as much as it surprises me to be saying this, SteelBoy is on the money with a lot of what he's saying in my opinion. In my experience, people with the financial clout to invest heavily in a football club aren't the type to accept a situation where they have to run their decisions and plans past a majority holding group made up, for the most part, of people who have nowhere near the same level of business experience as they do. If they're putting a considerable amount of money into any venture, they'll expect to make at least that and more back on the other side. That's simply how it is. They're not coming and giving up time and money for nothing. This suggests to me that they'll want majority control and will not be answerable to the Well Society. No serious investor would accept risking their capital in an industry that is difficult to profit from at the best of times without having majority control over how that entity is run and, more importantly, how their money is spent. The Well Society and any votes in the future would simply be seen as inconveniences and roadblocks to the real professionals doing their jobs. Which is maximising profit for the owner on their investment. The most concerning thing for any football fan is that most owners who do not have an emotional attachment to the club they own often see it as just another business venture. Venture is the key word there. Defined as "an undertaking involving chance or risk" or "a speculative business enterprise," which in most cases means that the investor takes a chance, and has an amount of money they're willing to lose before declaring the venture a loss. At that point, they cut it loose and let it sink. It happens to companies every day. It's just that those companies ordinarily don't have fans. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong on that count and see a unicorn in the form of someone with a ton of cash and no real emotional attachment to the club happy to throw cash into the pot and basically cede overall control and direction to the Well Society. I don't see it happening, though. As has been mentioned already, fan ownership gives us many things, but the most important is that it gives us our club. If the Well Society loses majority control (if it happens), it will no longer be our club—it will be the new owners' club. At that point, we will be just customers. Most of the noise surrounding this issue seems to be paving the way for a change in majority ownership. Again, this is just my opinion based on what I've experienced in the past. Losing majority control of something like a football is a hard sell to fans. The only way to really accomplish that is to convince said fans via various PR means that there's not really any other option moving forward. Vague mentions of financial issues and a drip-style media campaign that gets fans used to the idea of giving up control. Again, I'm not saying this is what is happening, but it looks a lot like it from the outside. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Miovski's a much player than Bair. He looks like he chucked it after January this season but still turns up against the Old Firm to keep himself in the shop window.

Well, either him or Harry Paton.

In the real world a player is only as valuable as what another team are prepared to pay, no offers no sale and he walks for nothing next summer.

No even in a lucky bag. His race is run.

Random shite as usual

There are some fantastic goals to choose from, but it's got to be Bair's dink against Livi for me. Honourable mention for Spittal's thunder bastard strike, however. The other takeaway from that video is how important Spittal has been for us. Putting Bair's revival and goals aside, Spittal has been our most important player by far this season, and it's not the first time I've posted that on this forum. We're going to miss him a lot.

100% correct why should fans have faith in promises made that could have been delivered over the last 5 or 6 years. I am not convinced by the American interest either but ill wait until I see actual facts rather than what someone down the pub thinks.

The finances are fine. We have made a good profit during a difficult period. To me it looks like the clique that have run the club in various guises for 20 years don't like the fact that the majority of the Well Society board are now supporters from the East Stand and decided they would rather privatise than see working class fans have a real say in how the club is run.

PS. I agree with David, in that if this deal goes through (and I might yet vote for it) and the Society no longer has majority shareholding, I will no longer feel the need to continue my subscription. In my opinion, if you give away majority shareholding the purpose of the Society no longer exists and you may as well wind it up. Not sure if the Board or investors hace considered that.......

100% this.

In an ideal world neither side of the OF would win the title, but the seethe from the Rangers fans this week will be as funny as it is epic.

The £3m "loss" is not an ongoing situation. Money was given during Covid as an interest free loan and the club chose to spend some of that money on changes to the park and hunter stand. That is a one time expense. That was not related to any safety certificate. The main stand has had some issues in the past that needed addressing but i believe that is now sorted and not a large on going cost. So your point about sustainability is completely wide of the mark.

The problem for Halliday is that he came with a pedigree so expectations are higher. Im hoping his issues are just lack of football and match fitness and that its not that his legs are just gone. Happy to see how he looks after a proper pre season and a bit more first team football. We should offer Theo an improved deal because he has earned it, but also to show prospective suitors we are serious about keeping him and if they want him they will need to make it worth our while. If we want to push his value up we need to send out the right signals.

Youre right could actually be 2.5k a month. I'll need to look it up but think thats more likely. Pretty sure it is around 2.5k a month Bair is on. Don't ask me why I said a week.

We can keep him till next summer, if his agent has a sniff of a better deal for him elsewhere he wont sign an extension and let his contract run down and we get feck all. So if that happens the club will say yes take the money on offer and say thanks Theo best of luck with your career.

We need to remember he is only on a 2yr contract. I am not looking to sell him but if we get a good offer be wise to cash in. Reminds me of Connor Sammon at Killie, had 1 good season, derby paid £2 million and he done her haw afterwards

I agree

Indeed. I'd also be happier if he played a bit closer to Bair...

Clarke will probably pick some jobber from English leagues one.

On plus side we would get money as uefa pay clubs if your player is in squad..

Given Clark’s obsession with player’s he’s worked with SOD’s the man - hope he’s not booked his holidays yet

you are quite correct their is a big difference but as much as potential investors need to prove their case , so do the Well Society , they too need to tell the fans how they will grow sustainable Revenue streams and have coherent business plans to back it up. They do that and no bugger will look twice at outside investors.

Because McMahon and Weir don't like the look of the new Society board.

Something like : top 2 get champions league, cup winners get Europa, third and 4th place gets Conference league, if 1st-4th win the cup then 5th gets conference league.

I mean it's worrying that they might be warming us up to announce he's a signed a new deal. He's our top earner and by far the worst goalkeeper in the league. We are the worst team at defending set pieces in the league because of him. We have to sign a new starting goalkeeper and free up his wage for a player that can make a positive contribution.

Couldn't afford his wages and too many injuries in recent years

It's not precarious if the club is run correctly. We budget for finishing 10th and a few cup games, and anything else above & beyond that goes into the "rainy day" fund. Be it player sales, extended cup runs, top six finishes, whatever. For example, we're sitting 8th at the moment, and let's say that finishing in 8th means getting £1.375 million instead of the £1.250 million the team finishing 10th gets. That's an extra hundred grand or so that we didn't account for, so it's a little bonus.

This

Exactly its a precarious operating model. We need more regular definite funds not funds that are rely on the exception rather than the rule. The WS need to tell us how they will achieve that.

I wanted to vote for Bair, but Jim McMahon forced me to vote for some guy called Barmack. So I hear.

You werent the only one! I was shouting at him to leave the kick alone for the very same reason. He shut me up good and proper! Absolute worldy!

As other people have said - where are the Well society going to find other money from? Unless there are cash reserves somewhere. I know it's possible that they could ask for extra donations from members. My whole issue with fan ownership is that there simply aren't enough members to make it work. No more than that - and I'm a member.

They can, but I'm not sure how that fits in with the Society's remit to be a fan-owned club, or if the Society can even legally exist in its current form if it becomes impossible for it to ever be the majority stakeholder.

He might not . But the club might. Personally my issue with fan ownership is that there's only 3000 members. Members that could cancel at any point.

It was only 12 months ago that we had a team performing consistently with 9/10 outfield players at a good level plus a donkey target man. If you look at the team on Saturday you could generously say 5 reach that standard. Maintaining the standards that we have set recently isn't an impossible task. I understand why the club want to decieve the fans about how much money they spend and why Kettlewell lies and says making top 6 is punching well above our weight but I don't understand at all why supporters want to lower the bar so much.

Vale beside Bair please, not behind him. Not confident about this one as Aberdeen seem to know how to beat us this term, with us holding on for a draw after being 3 up last time out at Pittodrie. They may also have a new manager bounce, if there is such a thing.

I don't think it is fine. McMahon is financing and producing videos promoting giving up fan ownership but is somehow still allowed to lead negotiations on behalf of the shareholders. It's a clear conflict of interest.

The thing is, you're in the investment thread talking about how the Well Society has been a success. If you think the team as it is is "dog shit" then you're not going to be any happier next season or the season after if we remain as a fan-owned club. Because we simply do not have the money to increase spending on players I don't think.

AHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAA

I might be wrong but I think that Pettigrew lob was in the 2-2 cup quarter final, which was followed up with a replay draw at Easter Road and ended with a 2-1 win at a neutral venue (Ibrox). As you say, that cup run ended with one Masonic ref giving Rangers a penalty when Derek Johnstone stepped on the ball about 2 yards outside the box but managed to land on the penalty spot. The scum went on to win 3-2 and the ref was later found guilty of taking bribes over a European game.