gilmour Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 the team on the pitch has been screaming out that it needs changed during the bad times, and some would say even more so when we've been cruising and these lads need game time Last night it couldn't have been more obvious that our midfield were getting overrun, and it should have been shored up why doesn't McCall do it? I dont think we'll ever know, but it sure is frustrating to watch but sadly it has to be said one of the managers isn't doing there job if we cannot put on a sub 60-70 minutes into a game to strengthen the team defensively DITO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 if clancy is playing at centrehalf again on saturday then serious questions will need to be asked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Dont you just love fans opinions that they know better than professionals. Every manager in the world is tactically inept, has no plan B, poorly timed subs, dont sign the right players. Arsene Wegner anyone? And I don't know lots about football management - taking training, dealing with agents and the press, signing players, man management, but I have watched 25 years worth of football at Fir Park, some fans been going even longer than me, and I think if you watch 25+ years worth of football out on the green stuff that gives you at least the knowledge to have and make an opinion on the football played. I think a lot of fans are ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes and I usually give staff the benefit of the doubt in those cases (signing players, finances etc.) but as for the football out on the park, I think fans can have opinions that are just as knowledgeable as professionals. Also, I think because managers are in the thick of it, choosing the tactics, picking the team, they sometimes lose their critical faculties. It's much harder for anyone to admit they are wrong or spot their own mistakes, that it is to look at someone elses work and spot errors, that's just human nature. It's no bad thing to have a second pair of eyes go over your work, its just in the case of a football club, it's a couple of thousand eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Outside the St Johnstone game I reckon we've done fuck all wrong this season. Can't really comment on last night as I wasn't there but from what I hear Hibs finally turned it on and when they've got a budget 4,5,6 times ours you'd be expecting them to win. Same with Celtic, they put in their best performance of the season against us. We simply don't have players on the bench to change tactics. Game time for youngsters is fine when we are cruising but it wouldn't take much knock their confidence and if we are already shakey and getting pumped then the unrealistic expectation of them turning it around and failing to do so might just be enough to set them back a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Can't really comment on last night as I wasn't there but from what I hear Hibs finally turned it on and when they've got a budget 4,5,6 times ours you'd be expecting them to win. Same with Celtic, they put in their best performance of the season against us. hibs were shite. we made countless chances to get the third and put the game away. most of their chances including the equaliser were gifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Outside the St Johnstone game I reckon we've done fuck all wrong this season. Can't really comment on last night as I wasn't there but from what I hear Hibs finally turned it on and when they've got a budget 4,5,6 times ours you'd be expecting them to win. Same with Celtic, they put in their best performance of the season against us. We simply don't have players on the bench to change tactics. Game time for youngsters is fine when we are cruising but it wouldn't take much knock their confidence and if we are already shakey and getting pumped then the unrealistic expectation of them turning it around and failing to do so might just be enough to set them back a bit. Hapy commenting on something he self admittedly didn't watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_tony Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 And I don't know lots about football management - taking training, dealing with agents and the press, signing players, man management, but I have watched 25 years worth of football at Fir Park, some fans been going even longer than me, and I think if you watch 25+ years worth of football out on the green stuff that gives you at least the knowledge to have and make an opinion on the football played. I think a lot of fans are ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes and I usually give staff the benefit of the doubt in those cases (signing players, finances etc.) but as for the football out on the park, I think fans can have opinions that are just as knowledgeable as professionals. Also, I think because managers are in the thick of it, choosing the tactics, picking the team, they sometimes lose their critical faculties. It's much harder for anyone to admit they are wrong or spot their own mistakes, that it is to look at someone elses work and spot errors, that's just human nature. It's no bad thing to have a second pair of eyes go over your work, its just in the case of a football club, it's a couple of thousand eyes. But of those 1000's of pairs of eyes, how many can honestly say they look at tactics and performances in an objective manner and can distinguish between dodgy tactics and good tactics undone by bad luck? I don't know what's going on behind the scenes with the likes of Page but it's possible McCall doesn't rate him that much and would rather play Clancy ahead of him. Most of Fir Park have only seen him in spells here and there so can't really judge if he could step in and do a job. Remember as well that we're without 2 defenders (Hutch and Saunders) who, were either fit, would walk straight into our defence right now. I get frustrated as well with the lack of changes but McCall's obviously got his reasons for it. I think our main problems at the moment are the fact that with Clancy coming into the team, our defence is essentially back to having to build a new partnership and Jennings, who should be protecting them, isn't up to his usual game at the moment. Personally, I'd like to see Forbes given a chance for a while. He's done well the last couple of times he's had a chance and some time off could possibly see Jennings rejuvenated. We're playing decent stuff though (Saturday aside) and last night we played some excellent football against a side who at least in an attacking sense, are much better than their league position suggests. O'Connor and Griffiths are quality players and on last night's form, would trouble any defence in the league. Play like that against Aberdeen and we'll get back to winning ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS1886 Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 My my, Stuart Mccall and Kenny Black are no mugs and their tactics are fine. Last night a team were 2-1 down and pressing us back as I would expect us to do. We lost a goal, so what. We got a poor offside decision against us or we were through. The manager picks the team and he can do very little to influence a game once they cross the white line. Every player will have his instruction and it is up to them to do their job. Tactical ability is something most managers have at a certain level and the difference between most teams is the personnel who turn up and perform for you on the day, like they did against ICT, Hearts, St. Mirren and Dunfermline with a few missed chances against agood Killie team. McCall and Black are doing fine just let them get on with it and lets get behind them. 'Mon the Well' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 My my, Stuart Mccall and Kenny Black are no mugs and their tactics are fine. Last night a team were 2-1 down and pressing us back as I would expect us to do. We lost a goal, so what. We got a poor offside decision against us or we were through. The manager picks the team and he can do very little to influence a game once they cross the white line. Every player will have his instruction and it is up to them to do their job. Tactical ability is something most managers have at a certain level and the difference between most teams is the personnel who turn up and perform for you on the day, like they did against ICT, Hearts, St. Mirren and Dunfermline with a few missed chances against agood Killie team. McCall and Black are doing fine just let them get on with it and lets get behind them. 'Mon the Well' Bollocks, managers can influence a match at any time during the game with their tactics and substitutions, for instance if you are a goal up and tiring with 5 mins to go you strengthen the defence and make it as hard as possible to break you down, if your team arent performing or players are struggling you can sub them and change shape,(or drop them!) you can even change shape to react to the oppositions way of playing. Last night we were 1 up with 5 mins to go,did fuck all and lost the game, last night we were playing a team with the best strikeforce outside the old firm and did nothing to try combat this (3 at the back, man mark 2 and have a sweeper? pack the midfield and cut off their supply? Press the game and knock their rhythm?) and O`Connor scored 2, poor management but not unexpected, we were told this by Bradford fans when he joined us, he sticks by his starting 11 and has no clue about how to change things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazles ring piece Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've got to agree with some of the posters regarding poor tactics and the lack of ability to change the shape of matches during the 90 mins . The thing for me, is constantly playing formations with a sole striker. Now, whether that's a 4-1-4-1 0r 4-5-1 formation, the midfield has to be well disciplined and mobile enough to be able to quickly support the front man and secondly defend the back 4. Problem is, neither are happening. Higdon is constantly isolated and the back 4 are getting pumped just now. What worked early on in the season has been sussed by our SPL rivals and THEY are using tactics to totally nullify us and break us down regularly. 4-4-2 to steady things and get the players confidence back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East_Stand_Al Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 At least until we have Hutchy back I think Hammy has to drop back and stay back a bit more, we all know he makes a lot of things happen when he pushes forward and often its great to see but thats partly why Craggs was pulled out of position and fucked up for the first goal last night. We have shown we can move the ball forward by good passing moves so lets go back to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 At least until we have Hutchy back I think Hammy has to drop back and stay back a bit more, we all know he makes a lot of things happen when he pushes forward and often its great to see but thats partly why Craggs was pulled out of position and fucked up for the first goal last night. We have shown we can move the ball forward by good passing moves so lets go back to that. not gonna happen vos we don't have any other naturally left sided players, (by that I mean someone who plays on the left who will occasionally use his left fucking peg) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coatsy Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 As far as last night goes when they brought on Agogo and took off a defender they started to dominate but they were wide open at the back. Did we change it no, obvious thing was to take Higdon off put Page man to man (as he's done before quite effectively) and pass thorough them exploiting the space, but i guess i'm just one of those FM managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Bollocks, managers can influence a match at any time during the game with their tactics and substitutions, for instance if you are a goal up and tiring with 5 mins to go you strengthen the defence and make it as hard as possible to break you down, if your team arent performing or players are struggling you can sub them and change shape,(or drop them!) you can even change shape to react to the oppositions way of playing. Last night we were 1 up with 5 mins to go,did fuck all and lost the game, last night we were playing a team with the best strikeforce outside the old firm and did nothing to try combat this (3 at the back, man mark 2 and have a sweeper? pack the midfield and cut off their supply? Press the game and knock their rhythm?) and O`Connor scored 2, poor management but not unexpected, we were told this by Bradford fans when he joined us, he sticks by his starting 11 and has no clue about how to change things Poor tactics, substitutions etc. Did I miss the whole McHugh coming on part, who scored a very good winner for us. Not the managers fault the official struggled with the offside rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Poor tactics, substitutions etc. Did I miss the whole McHugh coming on part, who scored a very good winner for us. Not the managers fault the official struggled with the offside rule. Missing the point I think. Changes should have been made when Agogo came on and some of our players were blowing out of their arse. We were hanging on and should have been looking to shore up at the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 The thing for me, is constantly playing formations with a sole striker. Now, whether that's a 4-1-4-1 0r 4-5-1 formation, the midfield has to be well disciplined and mobile enough to be able to quickly support the front man and secondly defend the back 4. Problem is, neither are happening. Higdon is constantly isolated and the back 4 are getting pumped just now. 4-4-2 to steady things and get the players confidence back up. Totally agree. Higdon needs support beside him to play with him. He'll thrive on that and its what St Mirren and Falkirk fans were telling us. He also needs support from the midfield and we have that in the shape of Nicky Law, who is a central midfielder being played out of position on the left. Unlike Lasley and Jennings, Law is quite capable of bursting through at speed to support Higdon. So why don't we play him in that role? Agree too with O'Neil's 40 Yarder that substitutions should have been made a lot earlier and before Hibs scored their second. Several players were injured or knackered and Hibs were pushing us further and further back . Daley could have come on earlier, as could have McHugh or Forbes. Lasley and Jennings simply disappeared when the going got tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 i thought las was excellent in extra time. he made an impact up and down the park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well 4 Europe Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Lasley and Jennings simply disappeared when the going got tough. Keith Lasley was immense last night. After a dodgy opening 20 mins he then scored and was fantastic for the next 100 odd mins. He was winning tackles, spraying passes forward was getting from box to box and was everywhere last night. Even more spectacular when you consider he was carrying Jennings for the first 90 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Keith Lasley was immense last night. After a dodgy opening 20 mins he then scored and was fantastic for the next 100 odd mins. He was winning tackles, spraying passes forward was getting from box to box and was everywhere last night. Even more spectacular when you consider he was carrying Jennings for the first 90 minutes. Agreed. Lasley has been struggling in recent weeks but he dragged us through the game last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carluke dosser Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Thought we made enough chances to win 3 games last night but couldnt put any them away. If you can score more than the opposition youll win the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian-in-Oz Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Good to hear various opinions which was the whole point of the thread. I wasn't having a knee jerk reaction to the HIbs game as i don't know much about it. It's just been my feeling for a while that his lack of willingness to make subs even for a player who is fatigued & an apparent lack of plan b for when things are going wrong on the park is a bit worrying. Sure we are playing good football & doing well but there comes a time in most games where you have to adapt to the changes the opposition make and we simply aren't doing that. A few people have mentioned times when we've been behind and managed a draw but my question was when were we behind & managed a win & the only answer has been Aberdeen almost 10 months ago. That's like saying if we go a goal down then it's game over or if we are lucky we will scrape a draw. The modern game dictates that you can use 14 players but we finish most games have only used 11 no matter how good or bad they are performing. Sometimes you need to freshen things up & sometimes you need to adapt to the opposition and we don't appear to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davkel Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 A couple of points ...Jenno is carrying an injury ...McCall shouted to him at least a couple of times in the 2nd half asking if his calf was OK ...he limped into the dressing room after 90. Craigan has moved to the LHS to accomodate Clancy ...thought Clancy did well enough on Tues , won most things in the air , made good challenges etc etc .. Thought we made 1 big change from Sat and that was the better support to Higdon ..on Sat any flick ons he won there wasnt anyone within 20 yards of the ball ...on Tues , every time Higdon went for the ball , Murphy was round the back of him looking for the knock ons etc ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Craigan has moved to the LHS to accomodate Clancy ...thought Clancy did well enough on Tues , won most things in the air , made good challenges etc etc .. Craigans been playing lhs since Reynolds left. Hutchy plays right side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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