Where Do We Go From Here?

[EightSixteen]

Way off the mark 8-16, its precisely because he wants shot of the liability that fan ownership was advanced as a proposition. He dabbled, tried to use his business acumen, got his fingers burned and sees it as a thing of the past now.

 

I understand why he wanted to sell, then why he wanted fan ownership, neither have panned out though. He paid Faddy's wages for long enough to suggest he still has steel coursing in his blood... I'm not saying he'll be back either way but I'm not closed off to this being a potential possibility. When the WS officially folds, will he still not be the majority shareholder?

[Goggles & Flippers]

He paid Faddy's wages for long enough

 

Did he, sure about that? .........

 

He tried to sell it to an individual or a group for a few years before he realised it wasn't going to happen so the WS idea was floated so he could distance himself from liability. Don't get confused with fan ownership being some noble gesture, it was because it was the only option available.

 

You may not be closed to it but I think its safe to say he is.

[texanwellfan]

I think what really worries people the most is that we will go bust. The normal cycle of things is that we are crap but we get better. We are good then we go back to being crap again. etc etc

 

At least that's how it used to work but now the danger is that if we get crap again we may not be able to survive the down cycle. Years ago when we got relegated the thought never croseed anyones mind that we would cease to exist. We would rally round and get promoted again. Much higher price to pay now for failure, yet I don't think we can reasonably expect to sustain the level of success we have seen over the past few years.

 

I agree with the other posters in that we need some financial backing. Doesn't have to be huge, just enough that we can remove the worry of going bust and that will allow us to manage contracts signings transfers etc in order to maximize transfer fees or retain better palyers longer. As was mentioned earlier, buyers know that we need money and therefore can low ball their offers. Or they know that in a year or so a players contract will be up and they can pick him up for free.

 

 

if we are not already,we should be actively seeking some outside investment whether that be foreign or home grown it doesn't matter but I would think there may be better opportunities from abroad.

[Burn_Broomfield]

'affirmative action'.

 

Do they want kevin harper back?

 

[underboyleheating]

I think what really worries people the most is that we will go bust.

This is the fear that most people will have when their team is going through a sticky spell on and off the park. However, I would like to think that we have measures in place to prevent this scenario from happening.

[smeddum07]

I felt at the game on Saturday that this team has lost its identity under Mcghee Gannon and then Mcall we played nice passing football that i felt had been taken into the DNA of the club. However it was dire long ball to sutton (who cant play as a target man!) The only player we have produced in a few years is Carswell (who we missed)

 

I feel if Mcall and the club had come out and say that we were bringing through our talent and play nice football but it may mean results suffer (we still wont go down) everyone would have been on board. McHugh and Erwin did well when the came on Saturday. If Mcall doesn't want go down that route thats fine he should be asked to leave. The last 3-5 years has been as good as we will ever have it (bar maybe a cup win) and we still losing money so the business model that the club has is not going to work and if we look at Hamilton or Dundee United we could develop our own players sell some on and keep some and build that way.

[Andy_P]

 

I feel if Mcall and the club had come out and say that we were bringing through our talent and play nice football but it may mean results suffer (we still wont go down) everyone would have been on board.

 

That sounds a lovely ideal but I suspect the reality would be somewhat different. For one thing Hibs have illustrated perfectly that you can't simply assume everything will end up okay. I also think you are being extremely optimistic if you believe that every Motherwell fan would be "on board" as you put it and would be willing to write off a season in terms of the cost of following the team, a potential dip in results and having the perceverence to cope with youngsters who may or may not cut it as hoped. I think of how patience for the likes of Fagan and Fitzpatrick ebbed away pretty quickly when it became clear they weren't of a Pearson or McFadden calibre.

 

The administration season is offered put forward as an example of how widespread use of youth can help develop them in the longer term. It remains a hugely memorable season for me too but the fact is we should have been relegated that year. And we're a world away now from a point in time when we were just overjoyed that our team was still in existance and getting pumped wasn't such a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

McHugh and Erwin did well when the came on Saturday. If Mcall doesn't want go down that route thats fine he should be asked to leave. The last 3-5 years has been as good as we will ever have it (bar maybe a cup win) and we still losing money so the business model that the club has is not going to work and if we look at Hamilton or Dundee United we could develop our own players sell some on and keep some and build that way.

 

Don't you think the club would love to be in a position where they can develop players then pick and choose who to sell for a tidy sum and who to keep on to build up a team? Ofcourse they would but its easier said then done.

 

The club know that if they finish several places down the table it has a signficant impact on the balance sheet and the budgets for the following campaign. They are also well aware that the smaller the manager's budget the bigger risks are for the future status of the team. They just aren't going to take that risk of flooding the team with youngsters.

[punk_in_drublic]

The answers to this question are very difficult, some posters have provided some great responses.

 

For me the problems of our football club are:

 

1. Dwindling support - this might be a bit misplaced, but I genuinely think Scottish football fans are falling out of love with Scottish football. Having the EPL on our doorstep has had an impact on this, Scotland's failure to qualify for any competition in over 16 years has had an impact on this. We as a nation can turn on the TV on a Saturday evening and watch EPL highlights for 50minutes followed by highlights from all the other lower leagues of England for a further 1 hour and 20 minutes. It's Sunday before a broadcaster shows Scottish football on TV. By that time any football fan has just sat through potentially 80 English league fixtures, many played out in glamorous surroundings with packed, state of the art stadiums. Then our football comes on, it's of a poorer quality, the stadiums are dumps that have had almost no investment since the 1960's. It's nigh impossible to market that product against our neighbours product. Almost everyone I know has an English team - I don't I have 1 team only, but it seems I'm a rare breed.

 

The there is the national team, their is literally over a generation, probably two generations in Scotland who have never witnessed their the national team take to a major tournament. This does nothing other than preserve the negativity surrounding the domestic product. To think that there are players in our current team (Erwin, Ferguson, Leitch) who were in nappies the last time Scotland reached a major tournament shows is mental. A full generation have missed any sort of national success.

 

These things I think have severed a bond with the domestic game that existed from the mid 1990's and back.

 

2. Youth - our youth policy simply hasn't worked for the last 5 years or so. We've produced Murphy and pretty much no one else for any fee since the tenure of Gannon (which takes us to the 5 year datum point I'm referring to). Why this is the case is beyond me. People have mentioned poor management from the financial folks at the club. If agree. The short-terimism has been a fucking massive failure. Having said that we have one or two long term youth contracts (McHugh and Cummins) which haven't exactly made a great case for the use of a long term view.

 

The recent success, and pressure to continue it, has fucked us a little with regards to youth development in my opinion. The incentive to finish second last year was massive as we know what the financial difference was between 2nd and 3rd. The manager just can't stick a lad on under those circumstances. Should the club just have thought 'let's bite the bullet here this season and finish 7th or wherever and blood through some youngsters'? Possibly. But if you then walk down the stairs and confer this idea with Mr McCall he could easily turn round and say that the crop of kids at his disposal simply aren't good enough to command a place, not now or not ever. Ultimately he sees them in training he must know their abilities. I'm 99% certain that the club will have made it known to him, year on year, that it's crucial to being youngsters through. But if it's his view that they aren't good enough, maybe it's our scouts and youth coaches that need the arse kicking, not McCall.

 

3. Structure- I agree that we need a money man at the top of the club. Socialism doesn't work in competitive and commercial enterprises in my opinion. You can't rule by a committee. I'm not making the case for a dictator, but a solid, tough, astute business head is required to lead the club in all financial discussions and ventures.

 

4. The Rangers Effect - I do think the loss of Rangers has impacted us. It's impacted interest in the league as well, from all fans of Scottish football. It's just no very good when the larger teams are floating around B-roads getting to off the radar places. That's not just aimed at Rangers, but Hibs and Hearts as well. People before me have mentioned the poor attendances by Saints fans, by ICT fans, etc this situation doesn't help us at all, I understand why it's happened but it's acted to hinder us.

[Fairhill]

I think what really worries people the most is that we will go bust. The normal cycle of things is that we are crap but we get better. We are good then we go back to being crap again. etc etc

 

At least that's how it used to work but now the danger is that if we get crap again we may not be able to survive the down cycle. Years ago when we got relegated the thought never croseed anyones mind that we would cease to exist. We would rally round and get promoted again. Much higher price to pay now for failure, yet I don't think we can reasonably expect to sustain the level of success we have seen over the past few years.

 

I agree with the other posters in that we need some financial backing. Doesn't have to be huge, just enough that we can remove the worry of going bust and that will allow us to manage contracts signings transfers etc in order to maximize transfer fees or retain better palyers longer. As was mentioned earlier, buyers know that we need money and therefore can low ball their offers. Or they know that in a year or so a players contract will be up and they can pick him up for free.

 

 

if we are not already,we should be actively seeking some outside investment whether that be foreign or home grown it doesn't matter but I would think there may be better opportunities from abroad.

 

I think you are right about the best alternative might be financial involvement from abroad. You might have a chat with Jessy Jones in Dallas since you're in his neck of the woods. See what you can do.

 

Alternatively, you might try to have him send some of the Cowboy's cheerleaders on a three month foreign assignment to Fir Park. I'm sure that will take care of the dwindling attendance.

[texanwellfan]

I'm sure you mean Jerry but I get the Jist of it :-) Yep Those cheerleaders might well help attendances! Ohhh and I'll keep buying the lotto tickets too

[Fairhill]

I'm sure you mean Jerry but I get the Jist of it :-) Yep Those cheerleaders might well help attendances! Ohhh and I'll keep buying the lotto tickets too

 

I did indeed mean Jerry Jones, and I still think you should give him a call as you know some of these guys need the odd write off from time to time. Wasn't it a bunch of Texans that were buying into Dundee? Can you just see a Well friendly at the Cotton Bowl!!

[superward]

Edit: Moved to the well society thread

[Well Well]

The Well Society ‏@TheWellSociety 2hWe are optimistic we will reach the £800,000 target by the end of November following confidential talks over a soft loan.

 

 

Any more info about this anyone..?

 

 

[weeyin]

The Well Society ‏@TheWellSociety 2hWe are optimistic we will reach the £800,000 target by the end of November following confidential talks over a soft loan.

 

 

Any more info about this anyone..?

 

Aye. There have been talks. And they are confidential.

[Well Well]

Aye. There have been talks. And they are confidential.

 

smartarse

[SteelmaninOZ]

I'm sure you mean Jerry but I get the Jist of it :-) Yep Those cheerleaders might well help attendances! Ohhh and I'll keep buying the lotto tickets too

 

Have we no got cheerleaders already at Fir Park?

 

[maddog]

Some interesting points throughout on the way forward - virtually all that we can't influence at the moment but most we can influence if we make the Well Society work.

 

It's clear some people have completely written the WS off. Probably understandable considering the task of raising 800k when there has been a bit of a plateau. But the Well Society board are now saying they're optimistic of hitting the target with a soft loan. So there would be more time to raise the money and hopefully more people sign up given that it's a viable prospect. And the ball is then in the court of the club/John Boyle/trustees of John Boyle's shares. Club needs financial security that the 800k would provide and the Well Society could be in a strong position, assuming the soft loan comes through.

 

There's a few points raised by people in this thread that I'd like to challenge.

 

(1) That John Boyle could return to the fray.

As Goggles & Flippers rightly pointed out, the Well Society was JB's exit strategy. He has had the club on the market for years and no-one has produced a decent bid. He put money in to prevent a disaster when Setanta went bust and is still owed 350k from that loan. He doesn't want to have to do that again. He wants out. He has donated his shares to the club.

Whatever his intentions, the deal for the Well Society gives us fans a chance to acquire the club without paying the previous owner. It's too good a chance to let slip. The money goes into providing financial stability for the club through a reserve fund. If it wasn't for the WS's £230k loan in February, then what would have happened? Certainly not finishing second.

 

(2) That we're not in financial trouble.

Someone said we'd be fine because we sold Anier for 300k and got the Europa money. We sold Ojamaa for a similar amount last summer and had one Europa tie. And club expect to make a small loss for last season. When we finished second. So how do we make a profit this season? Seems we need a very good cup run.

Last time we made a profit was 2010-11: it was 540k but we got to the Europa League play-offs, Scottish Cup final, top six, League Cup semis and sold Mark Reynolds. An exceptional season.

As well as the 230k WS loan there was a 125k commercial loan in Feb/March. JB is still owed 350k. We'll likely need another loan in February. I'd rather it was the Well Society plugging the gap with an interest-free loan than someone else looking for interest/security over assets. And with that ability to tide the club over, should hopefully come a majority shareholding that allows us to change a financial model that hasn't been working. There have been a number of mitigating factors such as demise of Rangers and lack of league sponsor but we can't go on making losses.

 

(3) That a "money man" is out there to bankroll the club - and that we need one

Firstly, if there is one then he would very probably have emerged when JB put the club up for sale years ago. And how many Scottish clubs are run on the benefactor model these days? That's to say

football clubs which are bolstered by donations from their owners? Not sure there are any. Celtic is a plc which is run on a sustainable basis. Dundee Utd had Eddie Thompson but were about £6million in debt until recently, some transfer deals have seen them right. Ross County might be the one benefactor model, but not sure how they get their money. Aberdeen, Hibs, St Mirren, St Johnstone, Inverness and just about all our other rivals are run as self-sustainable businesses - they only spend what they raise, although Aberdeen built up a huge debt a few years ago.

Secondly, clubs who have been in most trouble were run on the benefactor model. Rangers, Dundee, Hearts. Their recent benefactor is Ann Budge, but she will get all her money back, plus a bit of interest, when fans raise the money. There is virtually no-one ploughing money into Scottish football without expecting a return.

We had our own spell of JB putting in money and where did it get us? A fourth-place finish without a European trip, and soon after administration. As far as I can tell, JB has been plugging gaps on a temporary basis since then, not putting money in without wanting it back. The Well Society funds can plug the gaps in future to save the club from disaster, but it must be run on a self-sufficient, sustainable basis, as other clubs are.

 

(4) someone said "socialism" in football clubs doesn't work, that you can't run them by committee.

I understand where you're coming from but the fan-owned structure doesn't mean that a huge amount of fans are micro-managing the club. Like any other club you would have a board of directors, who employ someone to run the club on a day-to-day basis as a general manager/chief executive. The difference is fans (WS members) would be able to vote their chosen representatives to the board and hold them to account, and vote them off, and have input into the decision-making process. At this moment there are two reps on the MFC board but they are representing a 6% shareholding and it's the likes of Derek Weir and, up until recently, Leeann Dempster that make the decisions. At the moment the WS's focus has been on fundraising and making sure the club keeps the WS chance alive (until end of November) rather than being able to make decisions for the club.

 

As for the football, I think we'll be fine when we get our full defence fit, Ojamaa gets match-fit, and the likes of Vigurs, Ainsworth and Sutton get going. It took them all a while to do so last season. I have faith in a manager who has led us to a Scottish Cup final and three top-three finishes to turn a blip around, not to say that you can't point out mistakes.

[Well Well]

Great idea..!! Flexi ticket has a lot of appeal

 

http://www.motherwel...k-flexi-ticket/

[superward]

Great idea..!! Flexi ticket has a lot of appeal

 

http://www.motherwel...k-flexi-ticket/

 

Good stuff

[Goggles & Flippers]

(1) That John Boyle could return to the fray.

As Goggles & Flippers rightly pointed out, the Well Society was JB's exit strategy. He has had the club on the market for years and no-one has produced a decent bid. He put money in to prevent a disaster when Setanta went bust and is still owed 350k from that loan. He doesn't want to have to do that again. He wants out. He has donated his shares to the club.

 

Yeah and despite that, it still managed a negative vote .... don't mind getting them if someone backs their decision up.

 

A number of sensible and valid points in your post and well throughout and only your 18th so far, quite revolutionary for on here. fear not, you will descend to petty name calling and fantasy by about post 250

[Lobey_Dosser]

Interesting few months ahead. It would appear that McCall and his players are unable to paper over the of-field cracks any longer.

[Coatsy]

What are the off-field cracks affecting the playing staff

[MJC_MKI]

What we are witnessing now is McCall's poor performance in the last two summer transfer windows coming home to roost as the luck we carried by the bucketload last season has deserted us this year and inept, clueless guff like today, like Inverness and St.Johnstone at home is the result of it.

 

I have said all along that Stuart McCall is a poor manager who is one dimensional and has no answer when he can't work to his plan A. Today was another glaring example of this. And before anyone shoves last season in my face, he got lucky then as he had a largely settled side and we somehow scraped by, but can anyone seriously say that they thought we played good football at any point last year?

 

That said the problems at Fir Park run far, far deeper than just the manager and I believe we are completely rudderless, especially since the departure of Dempster and I honestly do nor know who is pulling string at FP just now because whoever it is, its not working for us.

 

The future is bleak.

[Haggischomper]

Last season is irrelevant anyway. It's this season that matters

[El Grew]

Get rid of McCall. Appoint Ian Murray from Dumbarton. Simples!