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Relegation

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Spot on Jay....this is what is getting me about the doom and gloom merchants (Im not a particularly happy-clapper myself to be honest), they are making up wee fairytales of how it may pan out years from now, based on absolutely fuck all...pretty much in the same way that they have managed to ascertain that if we do finish 11th we'd be as well allowing the Championship Club a free passage and not turn up as we'll get scudded.

 

There's being negative, there's being realistic and then there is being a monger of doom and its incredibly boring reading that pish on a consistent basis.

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I'm genuinely interested as to why so many 'Well fans attach such despair and, more importantly, finality to this?

 

Don't get me wrong - of course we all want to remain in the top flight and nobody wants us to languish in the First Division for years, but what if we do? Even if it resulted in the extreme predictions of part-time football, so what? Again, it's obviously not what any of us want and it would be a dark day in the club's history, but I really fail to see why "if we go down we won't come back up for ages" and "attendances and finance will drop and we'll end up part-time" are given as these terrible conclusions with no further comment when, in reality, they are just unfortunate changes in the club's circumstances. I'd suspect if it happened (and it's a purely hypothetical, massive "if"), we'd largely be quite content as long as we were in existence.

 

 

For me, there is a difference between being negative and being realistic. The former is berating young players, demanding the manager gets sacked, calling our entire team shite, and the rest of it. Being realistic, however, is simply putting forward an opinion based on where we currently find ourselves and the most likely outcome of that.

 

The problem on here is that too many people decide to bung both those together, then moan about both groups of folk being negative.

 

It's telling that Buxe on the podcast made the point that Steelmen Online can sometimes be perceived as negative but it helps stimulate discussion, yet the main culprits of trying to stifle debate at the moment seem to be those taking offence at others expressing belief we're heading for the playoffs or relegation.

 

Between the "woe is me" patter from those who have chucked it and the hints of a "holier than thou" attitude from those who, rather than indulge in debate and conversation choose just to dismiss opinions they don't agree with, there are actually folk in between who just think what is currently the most likely outcome (ie. us finishing 11th) is now going to happen.

 

I'll still be supporting the side at every game left and holding out hope we can turn things around, but that doesn't detract from my opinion that we'll finish 11th - and no amount of folk deciding I'm being negative changes that.

 

If we finish 11th having still managed to finish the season strongly, then hopefully we can take that momentum into the playoff. However, our mentality this season has been incredibly poor and I thought we bottled it on Saturday with a big crowd at a massive six pointer so, at the moment, I'm concerned that we'd struggle to rise to the occasion of a playoff.

 

Can we finish 10th? Absolutely. Do I think we will? No.

 

Can we win a playoff? Of course. Do I think we will? Still too far away to judge.

 

These 2 posts pretty much sum up my thoughts

 

Great posts

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It might actually be a breath of fresh air in the end.
That is assuming we don't go into administration and crumble, but the possibility of relegation should really be planned for (difficult as that may be. Hard to say whether attendances will drop or rise. It will probably depend on whether we started well once relegated.

 

Of course it isn't a foregone conclusion that we will go down.

But we should start facing the possibility rather than kidding ourselves that it will never happen.

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The way I see it is we are right up shits creek, but we still have the paddle.

 

If we end up in 11th, then its where we deserve to be given the form of this year - and for me, given its the core of the team that finished second last year, its an utter disgrace! We would still have the chance to redeem this atrocious season with the play-off.

 

If we end up being a Championship side next year I will be absolutely gutted. I've never seen our wee team relegated, and I don't ever want to.

 

However, if it comes to pass, the team will prevail - maybe even be stronger for it - thanks to the work being done off the field.

 

Would expect the majority of the team that has let us down so badly this year to be shown the door and let the young guys get their chance.

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We are the big favourite to finish 11th but that's been the case for a while. The only difference is most supporters have come round to the idea.

 

Our recent home record is pretty good so I don't think it's impossible for us to win three out of three there. Difficult but not impossible, especially if we get good supports out and make a lot of noise.

 

We are due Ross County at home, so if we win that, and can win our other home matches, then you are looking at a couple of away matches that could make the difference.

 

I don't believe Ross County will get full points from their next five, so we have to scrap and fight as hard as we can so that if/when they do drop points we are right behind them.

 

I'd say we have maybe a 25-30% chance of overtaking Ross County. Everyone else is safe in my book. What we can't do is go into a play off in poor form with the fans on the teams back. If it is a play off let's go into it flying and with that confidence I think we have at least a 50/50 chance against anyone trying to get up.

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For me, there is a difference between being negative and being realistic. The former is berating young players, demanding the manager gets sacked, calling our entire team shite, and the rest of it. Being realistic, however, is simply putting forward an opinion based on where we currently find ourselves and the most likely outcome of that.

 

The problem on here is that too many people decide to bung both those together, then moan about both groups of folk being negative.

 

It's telling that Buxe on the podcast made the point that Steelmen Online can sometimes be perceived as negative but it helps stimulate discussion, yet the main culprits of trying to stifle debate at the moment seem to be those taking offence at others expressing belief we're heading for the playoffs or relegation.

 

Between the "woe is me" patter from those who have chucked it and the hints of a "holier than thou" attitude from those who, rather than indulge in debate and conversation choose just to dismiss opinions they don't agree with, there are actually folk in between who just think what is currently the most likely outcome (ie. us finishing 11th) is now going to happen.

 

I'll still be supporting the side at every game left and holding out hope we can turn things around, but that doesn't detract from my opinion that we'll finish 11th - and no amount of folk deciding I'm being negative changes that.

 

If we finish 11th having still managed to finish the season strongly, then hopefully we can take that momentum into the playoff. However, our mentality this season has been incredibly poor and I thought we bottled it on Saturday with a big crowd at a massive six pointer so, at the moment, I'm concerned that we'd struggle to rise to the occasion of a playoff.

 

Can we finish 10th? Absolutely. Do I think we will? No.

 

Can we win a playoff? Of course. Do I think we will? Still too far away to judge.

Good post, Jay.

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Honestly, the "holier than thou" happy clappy attitude from some folk on here does my tits right in. Being relegated is just about the single biggest footballing disaster that can happen to any club anywhere and the hipster brigade of fantastic fans relishing day trips to wee middens is getting right on my nerves.

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Agree with that anybody who thinks relegation/ part time/ playing teams like Alloa who'll bring one man and his dog as away fans is feckin bonkers.... :crazy:

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Think that's the point though.

 

A lot of sensible posts were made that Thistle was going to be a difficult game & then on the flip side there were posters predicting a 3 goal victory.

 

Don't get me wrong we had 3 very very good results against Hamilton, St Mirren & Kilmarnock but people were definitely getting carried away.

 

9 victories all season simply means we wont win 5 on the bounce.

 

Can we win the play off???

 

We certainly can but i'd be dreading a trip to Ibrox based on previous experiences.

 

For me it's a good time for people to debate whether they think we'll stay up or not, there wouldnt be much debate after its all done & dusted

 

Ross County had 2 and then they've won 7 out of 8. As for our win's, you can't deny we've looked much better over the past month than we have all season, not beyond us and the group of players we have to grind them out.

 

The only thing I don't look forward to if we do face Rangers is the Daily Record double page spreads with Josh and Nicky Law facing off against each other holding up clenched fists and McCall greeting how regardless of the result how it has no positive outcome for him ....... wank rag.

 

We'd be better served talking about how we can tackle the next few games and our opposition, what we can do to combat them and expose frailties than hypothetically second guessing what's going to happen come August.

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Ross County had 2 and then they've won 7 out of 8. As for our win's, you can't deny we've looked much better over the past month than we have all season, not beyond us and the group of players we have to grind them out.

 

The only thing I don't look forward to if we do face Rangers is the Daily Record double page spreads with Josh and Nicky Law facing off against each other holding up clenched fists and McCall greeting how regardless of the result how it has no positive outcome for him ....... wank rag.

 

We'd be better served talking about how we can tackle the next few games and our opposition, what we can do to combat them and expose frailties than hypothetically second guessing what's going to happen come August.

You have to applaud Ross County on there recent form.

 

Beyond that your stance is we can miss the play offs, mine isn't.

 

Doesn't mean I won't be supporting the team any less.

 

But after witnessing the Thistle game ( a massive game ), I seen nothing that would suggest we can put the sort of run needed to avoid the play offs.

 

When you talk about 2nd guessing what will happen in August.

 

You started a threat where you predicted results for the teams round about us, 2nd guessing how teams would perform. ( you must have been really bored that day )

 

The reality whether you like it or not is its not in our hands where we finish in the league.

 

We need to build momentum over the next few games, get confidence up & have our best go at the play offs

 

If we drop points in the 1st game of the split we'll see if people remain the same positive stance

 

& if we win all 5 & finish 10th I'll be delighted & say fair play to you

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We'd be better served talking about how we can tackle the next few games and our opposition, what we can do to combat them and expose frailties than hypothetically second guessing what's going to happen come August.

 

Why?

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Agree with that anybody who thinks relegation/ part time/ playing teams like Alloa who'll bring one man and his dog as away fans is feckin bonkers.... :crazy:

Dewell, my man, this isn't even a complete sentence ffs. Almost makes me miss the ubiquitous capital letters.
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You have to applaud Ross County on there recent form.

 

Beyond that your stance is we can miss the play offs, mine isn't.

 

Doesn't mean I won't be supporting the team any less.

 

But after witnessing the Thistle game ( a massive game ), I seen nothing that would suggest we can put the sort of run needed to avoid the play offs.

 

When you talk about 2nd guessing what will happen in August.

 

You started a threat where you predicted results for the teams round about us, 2nd guessing how teams would perform. ( you must have been really bored that day )

 

The reality whether you like it or not is its not in our hands where we finish in the league.

 

We need to build momentum over the next few games, get confidence up & have our best go at the play offs

 

If we drop points in the 1st game of the split we'll see if people remain the same positive stance

 

& if we win all 5 & finish 10th I'll be delighted & say fair play to you

 

I didn't predict results, I gave my view on where we could end up. The reality is relegation as well as survival has not already been decided.

 

Likewise if County lose and we win, the balance will swing the other way. I prefer to look at it that way than yours.

 

As for if we win all 5, bugger all to do with me, save your thanks for the management and players.

 

 

Why?

 

Because it serves us better talking about what we will definitely face than relegation which isn't anywhere near guaranteed.

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We are the big favourite to finish 11th but that's been the case for a while. The only difference is most supporters have come round to the idea.

 

Our recent home record is pretty good so I don't think it's impossible for us to win three out of three there. Difficult but not impossible, especially if we get good supports out and make a lot of noise.

 

We are due Ross County at home, so if we win that, and can win our other home matches, then you are looking at a couple of away matches that could make the difference.

 

I don't believe Ross County will get full points from their next five, so we have to scrap and fight as hard as we can so that if/when they do drop points we are right behind them.

 

I'd say we have maybe a 25-30% chance of overtaking Ross County. Everyone else is safe in my book. What we can't do is go into a play off in poor form with the fans on the teams back. If it is a play off let's go into it flying and with that confidence I think we have at least a 50/50 chance against anyone trying to get up.

 

Everyone else is almost safe. Killie I think could just slip into trouble, weakest form out of themselves, County and Thistle. We lose our next game and others win and well pretty much all over even for the most die hard of optimists. That said it not unfeasible we get a win over Killie one week and they lose to form team County the next pending how the fixtures pan out. Provided we play a bit more like games pre Thistle every post split fixture is winnable and I reckon 4 wins will likely be needed minimum barring an utter arse collapse from someone else.

 

St.Mirren do look like free points for everyone but surely they scrape a draw or two somewhere. Fingers crossed it against someone like County or Killie as unlikely as it seems. Thistle and County will with luck both say pump Killie, or one of the, lose to Killie, the other one and ourselves. Quite a lot things outwith our control in this febrile imagining but will keep hoping for it for as long as the delusion can be maintained. Stranger things have happened and all that.

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I didn't predict results, I gave my view on where we could end up. The reality is relegation as well as survival has not already been decided.

Likewise if County lose and we win, the balance will swing the other way. I prefer to look at it that way than yours.

As for if we win all 5, bugger all to do with me, save your thanks for the management and players.


Ha ha your a weird one.

In the run in to the split thread you actually use the word predict when you summarise how many points you thought results would bring in for teams.

Your in denial ( border line delusional ) if you think we'll avoid the play off.

You still haven't given any valid reason why based on us winning 9 games all season you think we can win the next 5????

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Much like others, I am dreading a relegation playoff. If we do end up going down the budgets will be slashed accordingly and we will run at a lesser cost, mostly likely focusing on youth development.

I agree half of the places mentioned in the first division are shiteholes but if we do end up having to go to these places that will be half the fun.

I am in no way looking forward to these trips in some "happy clappy" manner. It may be that to build for the future we may have to start over. from the begining.

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If we do get relegated, and I'm far from convinced that we will, unlike drama queens such as Milo, I will be utterly gutted at the prospect but our Club will continue and I'd expect us to go all-out to regain our status in 1 season in the same manner that Hearts have done this season and Hibs and Dundee United have previously.

 

This, pretty much.

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A few points to consider that seem to have been overlooked/ignored....

 

1. When a club goes down, other than a genuinely "big" club, there is almost always very real consequences for the on and off field staff, be it redundancies, wage reductions, etc- that's very serious repercussions for ordinary people trying to put food on their table, hence my frustration at the "so what?" and "unfortunate change in the clubs circumstances" chat that's being peddled.

 

2. Les has said publicly that his five year plan does not involve Motherwell playing out with the top division. While I don't think this means he'll walk away as soon as we're down, I get the impression people are running on the assumption that he's going to bankroll a charge back up to the SPFL which I am certainly not banking on him doing when we are likely seven figures in his debt already.

 

3. A brief flick through the clubs (recent) historic accounts will confirm that Fir Park is costing us fairly significant sums each year and is at least part of the reason we have been posting losses almost annually despite European campaigns and regular player sales. As much as it's frustrating to get £200k/£300k for players that have been doing well at the top end of the top league, these are still figures we won't be able to command for players who are only cutting it against Dumbarton and Alloa. When you add in the lack of TV deal, reduced attendances and everything else that goes with the drop then it is very, very realistic that this could be a slippery slope with hard-felt affects across our whole community so you'll forgive me for being a bit glum about it.

 

Now I am fully aware that people with their heads buried in the sand will blanket respond to this with the killer phrase "cut our cloth accordingly" but with a crumbling stadium, newly acquired debt and three of our most senior players commanding SPL captains wages for at least another season, where will these cuts come from that won't leave us either unable to compete in a very difficult division or even unable to survive on a full time basis?

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Unfortunately I am old enough to remember relegations of the past. There is no up side. Wasn't then, isn't now.

As a business, times as hard enough in the SPFL, the Championship will be crippling. There is nothing good about away games in Cowdenbeath, seriously.

I like supporting the wee team from the town where my Dad grew up. This will not change if we do go down, but it is so much better when we are playing with the big boys in the big league and punching above our weight.

The ability to avoid this catastrophe is still in our hands. Much more likely to be via the play off but before that we need to build some positive momentum. We saw how shallow this can be last Saturday and if you look at what happened to Hibs last year, you can see how fragile this can be. We need good performances from now until the seasons end and, probably into the play offs. After it is over and done with, there will be time for the inquest into an awful season.

Come on the 'Well!

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A few points to consider that seem to have been overlooked/ignored....

1. When a club goes down, other than a genuinely "big" club, there is almost always very real consequences for the on and off field staff, be it redundancies, wage reductions, etc- that's very serious repercussions for ordinary people trying to put food on their table, hence my frustration at the "so what?" and "unfortunate change in the clubs circumstances" chat that's being peddled.

 

To go from slating folk on here who are "holier than thou" to standing up for the "ordinary people trying to put food on their table" so quickly is actually quite impressive!

 

Of course relegation has big, negative effects both on and off the park, I'm not sure anyone has actually denied this. For some staff members or players, relegation will almost certainly be a disaster. However, if you genuinely believe that most ordinary fans are "a bit glum" about relegation because an office staff member might lose their job then I think you're being incredibly naive.

 

My point, quite clearly, was that if we go down the supporters who want to continue supporting their side in the First Division will do so, and will probably continue to have a reasonably good time doing so - given that's essentially what following a football team is supposed to be, enjoyable.

 

Personally, as much as I really don't want us to be relegated, if we do go down then I know for a fact I'll enjoy some different away days and the novelty of playing other teams from the usual - if that makes me a part of the hilariously named "hipster brigade of fantastic fans" then so be it but I enjoy following my team and I will continue to do so whether we're in the SPL next season or not.

Nobody wants us to be relegated - the difference is whether you choose to approach it by immersing yourself in all the negative aspects of it, or accepting it has happened outwith our control as fans (if it indeed does) and focussing on any perceived silver linings. There's no right way of dealing with it, but just because folk don't choose the same mind-set as you doesn't mean they're "burying their head in the sand".

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I'm genuinely interested as to why so many 'Well fans attach such despair and, more importantly, finality to this?

 

Don't get me wrong - of course we all want to remain in the top flight and nobody wants us to languish in the First Division for years, but what if we do? Even if it resulted in the extreme predictions of part-time football, so what? Again, it's obviously not what any of us want and it would be a dark day in the club's history, but I really fail to see why "if we go down we won't come back up for ages" and "attendances and finance will drop and we'll end up part-time" are given as these terrible conclusions with no further comment when, in reality, they are just unfortunate changes in the club's circumstances. I'd suspect if it happened (and it's a purely hypothetical, massive "if"), we'd largely be quite content as long as we were in existence.

It's just annoying that we have went from a such strong position at the end of the 2012/13 to where we are now. Given the dearth of quality in the league it should have been near impossible to manage but we have due to a shockingly bad series of decisions.

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It's just annoying that we have went from a such strong position at the end of the 2012/13 to where we are now. Given the dearth of quality in the league it should have been near impossible to manage but we have due to a shockingly bad series of decisions.

Oh aye, I agree entirely - I'm not saying that we shouldn't be absolutely gutted if we go down, of course we should. Relegation is a horrible thing for any club to have to go through, particularly a club like ours which has done so well over the course, particularly in recent seasons. Just because folk try to focus on any positives, like a different fixture list or a chance of maybe challenging for something, doesn't mean they're feeling any less shite about going down. I just never quite get the finality folk seem to attach to it - like going down is some final conclusion when, in reality, it is just a different chapter in the club's history. If we are in the First Division next year, I imagine most of us will still be going, Steelmen Online will still have debates raging, the podcast will still be being recorded (hopefully!), and I don't believe folk will have as quite a shite time as they seem to think!

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While it wasn't in the five-year plan to be relegated (I doubt we ever make plans for such an eventuality) Les has gone on record on saying the future of the club won't be in doubt.

 

Cutting our cloth accordingly will just have to be a consequence of relegation, players that haven't performed may be let go - that happens at the end of every season whether we finish second top or second bottom.

 

I still believe we can stay up and Saturday aside have been encouraged by recent showings. Should we go down then no it isn't what we wanted to happen, but I'd prefer looking at it as an opportunity to give youth a chance and build our way back up than sitting raging for the duration of our time out of the 'big league'.

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