Will We Qualify For The Next Stage Of The League Cup

[Andy_P]

With the potential for a 'Winner takes all' game on Saturday there's a possibility it might get televised live.

According to this there's one live game for the weekend still to be selected.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-much-your-club-make-8488355#6wUymb4aL3cJblTF.97

Not sure how the other fixtures are for Saturday mind you.

Also quite an interesting article that gives an idea of the prize money on offer.

Apologies for linking to the Record all the same...

[Welldaft Mk1]

Even if we do get through we will not be seeded for the next round.

 

Which means a likely tie v Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen etc. Going to be tough.

 

Also noticed how Dundee United play Dunfermline on Sunday. Meaning they would potentially know what would be needed for both to qualify if it came down to it...

[BigWeegieDosser]

Also noticed how Dundee United play Dunfermline on Sunday. Meaning they would potentially know what would be needed for both to qualify if it came down to it...

Oooft, bit early for conspiracy theories surely?

Arabs and Pars colluding-

What next, Hilary Clinton emailing sensitive data on us to the opposition?

I'm wearing a tin foil hat until the end of the group stages just as a precaution, they're everywhere you know

[MelvinBragg]

Even if we do get through we will not be seeded for the next round.

 

Which means a likely tie v Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen etc. Going to be tough.

 

Also noticed how Dundee United play Dunfermline on Sunday. Meaning they would potentially know what would be needed for both to qualify if it came down to it...

No seeding at all? Good. Proper cup draw...

[Lobey_Dosser]

4 euro teams + 4 best group winners will be seeded.

 

Would like to think you couldn't play a team from your group in last 16 but haven't seen that documented anywhere.

[Kmcalpin]

Also quite an interesting article that gives an idea of the prize money on offer.

 

Thanks for the information Andy.

 

Maybe its just me but I find the prize money on offer to be shockingly paltry. A mere £10,000 for our televised group game against Rangers? I was expecting at least circa £50k.

 

3rd placed group teams get £19k whilst the 4 worst runners up get a mere £4,000 more! Those clubs going out in the 2nd round get a mere £7,000 more than that. When you take into account players' bonuses there's virtually no incentive to do well. Even gate money is split with the SPFL creaming some off.

 

Now I know every penny counts for us as a club and normally I'd advocate going all out to win every cup game but I now understand why some managers, maybe including Mark McGhee, are placing more emphasis on preparing for our first league game. Even crowds are poor for this tournament so far.

 

On learning these figures I've completely changed my mind about this competition. Whoever dreamt up this format and commercial deal should get their books.

[Kmcalpin]

 

Apologies - erroneous post. Mods please delete.

[Gadgey]

Whilst I don't want to sound like a miserable sod, I can't say that I'm a fan. I've no problem with SPFL trying to spice the league cup up and I was willing to withhold judgement on this group format.

 

However, the attendances have been poor, the prize money derisory and more to the point, given that we only have two cup competitions to enter and the potential financial saviour that a cup run can bring, there is too much pressure put on an underprepared and incomplete (not specific to Motherwell) squad with limited resources.

 

The fact that Moult is having to play medicated and delaying surgery during pre-season is sufficient argument in itself.

 

Yeah, it's exciting looking at all the permutations of second place qualification but it's that very pressure that in my opinion (and I'm trying to be balanced) that is unnecessary at this time of the season. The legacy of an injury to a key player may destroy a club and players season. I would hate to be lamenting the absence of or weakening of or top goal scorer in December when we're struggling for goals and in the wrong half of the league....all for that all important 4 or more win against East Stirling and Stranraer.

 

 

The SPFL season is long enough as it is, yet it's deemed appropriate that teams must play in a summer cup. I just hope the January break does enough to compensate.

[Graeme Bremner]

I like this format its better than normal pre season dross and potentially means the team could go into the league season fitter as a unit and more used to how each other play.

 

Also i don't really get the lack of excitement for the league cup if we go on and win it it will be celebrated (I'm sure).

 

OK its not the better of the 2 cups (no euro place, less prize money, etc ) but a cups a cup. Personally I will take what we can get

 

Also if we do draw Hearts, Celtic, Aberdeen or Hibs what does it matter wed have to play 3 of them at some point so why not in the cup.

[mjw]

Whilst I don't want to sound like a miserable sod, I can't say that I'm a fan. I've no problem with SPFL trying to spice the league cup up and I was willing to withhold judgement on this group format.

 

However, the attendances have been poor, the prize money derisory and more to the point, given that we only have two cup competitions to enter and the potential financial saviour that a cup run can bring, there is too much pressure put on an underprepared and incomplete (not specific to Motherwell) squad with limited resources.

 

The fact that Moult is having to play medicated and delaying surgery during pre-season is sufficient argument in itself.

 

Yeah, it's exciting looking at all the permutations of second place qualification but it's that very pressure that in my opinion (and I'm trying to be balanced) that is unnecessary at this time of the season. The legacy of an injury to a key player may destroy a club and players season. I would hate to be lamenting the absence of or weakening of or top goal scorer in December when we're struggling for goals and in the wrong half of the league....all for that all important 4 or more win against East Stirling and Stranraer.

 

 

The SPFL season is long enough as it is, yet it's deemed appropriate that teams must play in a summer cup. I just hope the January break does enough to compensate.

Moult has had this injury since Christmas, the league cup should have had no bearing on when he went for an op.

[Kmcalpin]

I like this format its better than normal pre season dross and potentially means the team could go into the league season fitter as a unit and more used to how each other play.

 

 

Given the timing of the games, in mid July, the poor crowds, and the derisory prize money on offer, I suppose your overall opinion of the tournament depends on which of 2 ways you view it. As a competition its misconceived but if you view it purely as pre season preparation it may be ok. That said some managers prefer to engage with non Scots opposition. Am I right in thinking too that yellow / red cards result in financial deductions from the already poor prize money?

[Welldaft Mk1]

People talk about poor crowds and derisory money. But examine the evidence and it is not strictly true.

 

It has been pointed out that the deal with Betfred and the money on offer is twice what was on offer last season.

 

The crowds may be low - but how many away fans would have travelled to Annan were it a friendly. Not me and probably not a few other hundred Well fans that made the trip our of the 600 or so.

 

It actually would have helped to have had Rangers at Ibrox. After costs Stranraer will share gate money from a near 30,000 crowd!

 

It is not perfect, but better this than pre-season friendlies any day of the week.

[Juan Kerse]

It's win win for everyone surely? Prize money aside, the split of 4 gates is going to be much more income than getting papped out in the first or second round of the league cup. (Include Motherwell in this). The games are better (and more income) than friendlies, which are just pointless. It means we get to play 3 or 4 teams we rarely face and visit New/rare places.

 

Way better than a same old september Midweek snoozezfest against Kilmarnock or St Mirren.

[weeyin]

Summer fitba', eh?

[Andy_P]

I think there are pro's and con's but then that's no different to the format that went before and indeed the lengthier group stages that finished up in the early-mid eighties.

 

First impressions for me are fairly positive. I had some initial reservations about only playing teams once and when announced the penalty shoot-out idea seemed a bit mental but these haven't inhibited the competition much if anything at all.

 

The qualification format with the best runners-up scenario has held the interest - we need only see our fans attempting to work out the permutations - and whilst admittedly it has in general been Rangers v A.N.Other and meant another three or four summaries from the detestable Chris Sutton I quite like the additional exposure Scottish football has got on TV at a time when England is just emerging from its close season slumber.

 

I'm not so sure about the increase in potential burnout or injury as a result of the group stages. Sure there are extra games but everyone is in the same boat aren't they? It's not like perhaps those seasons under Gannon and Brown where you had half a dozen competitive games on almost all of the teams in the league by the opening weekend of the season. And arguably that did us little harm.

 

I can't remember if it was referred to on one of the live games or perhaps read it somewhere but the statement was that the format was in place until 2019 I think. I would hope whilst committing to that there is a review prior to next season. Suggestions of using 5 substitutes don't appear unreasonable. I think I'd also prefer a pre-determined structure in place so people know the fixtures and layout rather than the "we'll come back to you sometime with the fixtures (once we've carved it up behind the scenes) some time next week. Bye". setup that was in place this year.

 

I think in time it has the potential to throw up repeat fixtures with the North/South split that may lessen the appeal and as ever if the finance on offer could be improved ideal but on the whole thus far it's been a progressive change in my eyes.

[Joeboy]

I guess you have to consider prices as well. To attend all four games, an adult Motherwell fan would have had to pay £47, that's even before a £300+ season ticket can come into validity.

[Neilwell86]

I don't think the pricing is an issue, if we never had these games then we would be playing friendlies in there place and the ticket prices would be more or less the same so on that front it's six and half a dozen, with the added benefit of watch competitive football as oppose to meaningless kick abouts.

[Graeme Bremner]

Given the timing of the games, in mid July, the poor crowds, and the derisory prize money on offer, I suppose your overall opinion of the tournament depends on which of 2 ways you view it. As a competition its misconceived but if you view it purely as pre season preparation it may be ok. That said some managers prefer to engage with non Scots opposition. Am I right in thinking too that yellow / red cards result in financial deductions from the already poor prize money?

 

I don't know about deductions from prize money but I like it seeing different grounds, playing teams we wouldn't normally, (competitively) and gives those of us who can't get anywhere for a holiday a wee day out you won't find me complaining. also if they added a euro spot the cup would mean that bit more and won't be viewed as a hassle the way it is now by some fans

[capt_oats]

Presumably as the league cup is an "official" competition it's bound by FIFA rules so that will dictate things like number of subs, trialists and that sort of thing?

 

It may well be the case that unless there's a way round it (games being played outwith the regular league season?) they're stuck with 3 subs.

[Gadgey]

Moult has had this injury since Christmas, the league cup should have had no bearing on when he went for an op.

So, your logic is ????

 

I wasn't aware he'd had it since Christmas but even if that were so, the reasonable expectation surely would be that he'd have surgery done in the close season.

 

Aren't you merely reinforcing my point????

[ropy]

Don't think so, his surgery hasn't been delayed because of the League Cup.

[weeyin]

They were obviously hoping his injury would heal over the summer, but when it didn't, decided to make sure he'd be fit for as much of the regular season as possible.

[mjw]

So, your logic is ????

 

I wasn't aware he'd had it since Christmas but even if that were so, the reasonable expectation surely would be that he'd have surgery done in the close season.

 

Aren't you merely reinforcing my point????

No.

[TonyS88]

Back to the main topic, and after tonight's results it's going to come down to the wire. It's likely 2nd place in group C and D will both end up with more than 9 points, but that's it. That means there's 2 more spots up for grabs and 6 teams going for it all on 6 points currently. The goal difference for each team looks like: +3: Stirling, QotS, Us +2: Peterhead 0: Killie Unknown: Accies.

 

Accies play tomorrow against Edinburgh city and are currently at 3 pts after 2 games and +2GD so I expect them to be +4 at least after tomorrow and to be in pole position for 1 of the two spots left.

 

Now all this makes it look quite tight, but looking closer at the groups, it might not be. All of what I write below will be assuming we beat Stranraer.

Group A: East Fife top the group with 8 pts but have played all 4 games so sit out the last round. Peterhead are playing Dumbarton and will likely win, pushing East Fife to 2nd, but either way any result will end up with 2nd place being below 9 pts. Therefor a win against Stranraer would guarantee us ahead of group A's 2nd place

Group B: Stirling's final game is against 1st place St.Johnstone who are on 7 pts. Therefor the same scenario as group A appears, any result in that game will leave the groups 2nd place below 9 pts and below us in the 2nd place rankings.

Group C: Inverness and Dundee Utd. both sit on 7 pts and both are favorites to win their final matches, meaning the 2nd place here is probably out of our reach. Most likely upset would be a Dunfermline win or draw over Utd where Dunfermline win on pens. This game is getting played on the day after everyone elses so they'll both be going into it knowing what result they need.

Group D: Alloa and Raith first and second on 9 and 8 pts respectively and playing each other in the final game. An Alloa win would leave Raith 2nd on 8 pts and would be best for us, or a draw with Alloa winning the shootout as Raith's goal difference is only +2.

Group E: QotS 2nd on 6 pts and playing bottom placed Stenhousemuir. Probable multiple goal victory so we'll be hoping to at least match what they do.

Group G: Assuming Accies beat Edinburgh City tomorrow they'll have their last game vs Livi and will probably be a couple of goals ahead of us in GD already. However, top of the group Ayr Utd have 9 pts and a +3 gd and have played all their matches. Therefore, 2 wins for Accies will have Ayr 2nd and any win over Stranraer has us ahead of them. Accies slipping up in either game will mean they finish below 9 pts and in 2nd.

Group H: Killie's on 6 pts and play their last game against Albion Rovers, but they currently only have a GD of 0, they'd need to beat Albion by 3 more goals than we beat Stranraer by to overtake us which is unlikely. Also 1st placed Morton are on 8 pts only so a loss or a penalty shootout loss against Berwick will see us beat this group's 2nd place.

 

All in all that's groups A, B, and G that we automatically beat with any sort of win, and as long as Killie don't beat Albion Rovers by 3 more goals than we beat Stranraer we'll be through, and that's if every other result goes against us.

[Juan Kerse]

Good effort mate, thanks for going to the bother of writing that up. Looks ok for us, IF we stick a couple past Stranraer.