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grizzlyg
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Watched the Togo game yesterday and the best thing about it was each half only lasted 40 minutes. Insipid stuff played in the middle of what looked like a building site, with the spectators having to watch from the bridge on the main road. Strange spectacle all round.

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If they'd done that more often yesterday, it would have been better for them. The only time they created anything was when they played it out wide. Most of the rest of the time they were playing square ball after sqaure ball in their own half.

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That's the way Gemmill has them playing....sideways, sideways, back... followed by a hoof forward to a giant striker. No different from the way he has had the U21s playing all year. Earlier comment about making Robinson look like Pep Guardiola is spot on.  Anybody who saw the matches against England and Andorra will know what I mean.  Painful  to watch and all creativity stifled. Emphasis on not losing rather than winning. To a degree I can understand that approach with the senior side, but for fuxsake just let the kids play their natural game.

 Looks like most players are terrified of giving the ball away by trying anything remotely offensive. Campbell seemed to spend most of the game playing immediately in front of the defence and playing one twos with his Centre Backs. Don't think he crossed the half way line. There are some decent players in there but you would not know it from the way they are set up. I think the two Centre Backs must have had more touches than anybody, mostly as a result of  passes from their own midfield.

Only stuck with it until the end because of Campbell. Even that might not tempt me next time up.

 

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13 hours ago, steelboy said:

What benefits would come from a merger?

The SFA adminster all football, the SPFL are the professional clubs. It's two different things.

*  Reduction in costs by cutting down on duplication

*  Reduction in the potential for conflict

*  Reduction in bureaucracy

*  Reduction in the number of "blazers"

*  New organisation and a chance to start afresh (not guaranteed of course)

 

 

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There would be more conflict. The clubs look after their own interests, the SFA are responsible for the whole of the sport. Say they merge what happens with sponsorship? Who would decide what percentage goes to the senior clubs and what goes to women's and grassroots?

The richest clubs already have a big influence at the SFA. If you officially merge them in they will end up completely dominating it to the detriment of every other part of the game.

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More would be gained from asking the Currants and Gypsies to leave the league so we can rock up in early August with some hope we have a chance of competing for the league title a possibility opposed to it being crazy talk.

Unfortunately the gulf just widens, something that UEFA has failed to address with the Champions League. As great as this season has been for us, I still find myself apathetic about 2018-19. Take heed from Formula 1, when it becomes a precession then it loses any attraction.

It's evident by how many of the world's best supporters show up for a game midweek in February against Accies. It's an expensive season ticket when all you buy it for is 2 OF matches and first dibs on Euro tickets.

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2 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Unfortunately the gulf just widens, something that UEFA has failed to address with the Champions League.

I don't know if its a case of UEFA failing to address the gulf as much as actually creating the gulf, in large part. 

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2 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

As great as this season has been for us, I still find myself apathetic about 2018-19. Take heed from Formula 1, when it becomes a precession then it loses any attraction.

Yeah, this ties in with the other thread about attendances.

The league season is by and large shite (as there is no prospect of winning it) and personally, the relegation battles make it 'enjoyable' because they actually have something tangible/meaningful at stake.

Even 2nd place is a bit 'meh'.

Obviously only one person's opinion and still go to most home league games, mind you.

 

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35 minutes ago, Richie said:

The league season is by and large shite (as there is no prospect of winning it) and personally, the relegation battles make it 'enjoyable' because they actually have something tangible/meaningful at stake.

 

When was the last time we had a realistic chance of winning the title? Maybe in the early mid nineties and even then many of us weren't convinced.  Certainly I can't recall any time since I began going to FP that  I started out the new season thinking that we'd had a realistic chance of winning the league title (old second/first division titles apart).    

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There are lots of different elements to the discussion.

Celtic's dominance is often cast up as an apparent example of how poor our league is but it's not like we're alone here in having a supremely dominant side.  I mean what are we up to in Italy now? Seven successive Serie A titles for Juventus?  It's been something like 5 out of the last 6 in France have been won by PSG, not to mention a treble this season.  Porto and Benfica have carved it up between them both for about the last 20 years.  Basel were only just pipped from making in 9 in succession in Switzerland.  Despite what you are lead to believe things aren't significantly different in Scotland to a number of other European leagues in terms of dominance and predictability of winner.

There is a whole separate debate to be had about the actual quality of the football on display in Scotland but for excitement, drama and at times sheer farce Scottish football is  great.  The league set up is such as that in every division you will generally have very few teams that don't have something to play for as you head towards the end of a season.  The battle for second place and the European places and at the bottom end looks like it will be as competitive as ever.  The Championship has about 4 or 5 teams that could realistically put in a challenge for promotion.  There are lower league sides that historically have performed at higher levels like Airdrie and Clyde  are positioning themselves for challenges to take a step back up and the likes of Cowdenbeath (and perhaps Hamilton to a lesser extent) doggedly defying the odds again and again to just stand still. 

There are stories of interest right, plots and sub-plots across all the divisions, you just sometimes have to get beyond the slavish devotion to the Old Firm that you get from a lot in the mainstream media to get a flavour of them.

We also obviously suffer from the geographical proximity and the gulf in size compared to our southern neighbours.  How many times have you been scoffed at by English fans for only having 4000  fans or whatever.  The reality is of course is that per head of population our top division is one of the best supported in Europe.  That us playing Celtic is the equivalent of somebody like Rochdale or Oldham making the FA Cup Final.  But that doesn't make for as good a piss take does it and the "small fry" nature of our league gets reinforced time and time again.

UEFA's influence? That's a bit more tricky.  The  money involved undoubtedly helps Celtic get further and further away with each passing season and it would be absolutely lovely if one of us were able to deny them a third successive treble. There is no doubt Europe can be a significant benefit to them. But by the same token the Champions League and Europa League's relevance to Scottish football almost seems to lessen each year. Few make it very far and at times it actually feels a bit like a World Cup or European Championship where because you've so little involvement after the early rounds that you can almost view it from a detatched perspective and enjoy the competitions for what they are.

All things considered, I'm pretty comfortable with what Scottish football is all about.  By God there's lots that can be improved upon, issues that need to be tackled and what not but following the League Cup draw the other night,  the anticipation of new signings, new strips, new scoreboard and the announcement of friendlies to come  my appetite has already been whetted for the new season to come.

 

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5 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

There are lots of different elements to the discussion.

Celtic's dominance is often cast up as an apparent example of how poor our league is but it's not like we're alone here in having a supremely dominant side.  I mean what are we up to in Italy now? Seven successive Serie A titles for Juventus?  It's been something like 5 out of the last 6 in France have been won by PSG, not to mention a treble this season.  Porto and Benfica have carved it up between them both for about the last 20 years.  Basel were only just pipped from making in 9 in succession in Switzerland.  Despite what you are lead to believe things aren't significantly different in Scotland to a number of other European leagues in terms of dominance and predictability of winner.

There is a whole separate debate to be had about the actual quality of the football on display in Scotland but for excitement, drama and at times sheer farce Scottish football is  great.  The league set up is such as that in every division you will generally have very few teams that don't have something to play for as you head towards the end of a season.  The battle for second place and the European places and at the bottom end looks like it will be as competitive as ever.  The Championship has about 4 or 5 teams that could realistically put in a challenge for promotion.  There are lower league sides that historically have performed at higher levels like Airdrie and Clyde  are positioning themselves for challenges to take a step back up and the likes of Cowdenbeath (and perhaps Hamilton to a lesser extent) doggedly defying the odds again and again to just stand still. 

There are stories of interest right, plots and sub-plots across all the divisions, you just sometimes have to get beyond the slavish devotion to the Old Firm that you get from a lot in the mainstream media to get a flavour of them.

We also obviously suffer from the geographical proximity and the gulf in size compared to our southern neighbours.  How many times have you been scoffed at by English fans for only having 4000  fans or whatever.  The reality is of course is that per head of population our top division is one of the best supported in Europe.  That us playing Celtic is the equivalent of somebody like Rochdale or Oldham making the FA Cup Final.  But that doesn't make for as good a piss take does it and the "small fry" nature of our league gets reinforced time and time again.

UEFA's influence? That's a bit more tricky.  The  money involved undoubtedly helps Celtic get further and further away with each passing season and it would be absolutely lovely if one of us were able to deny them a third successive treble. There is no doubt Europe can be a significant benefit to them. But by the same token the Champions League and Europa League's relevance to Scottish football almost seems to lessen each year. Few make it very far and at times it actually feels a bit like a World Cup or European Championship where because you've so little involvement after the early rounds that you can almost view it from a detatched perspective and enjoy the competitions for what they are.

All things considered, I'm pretty comfortable with what Scottish football is all about.  By God there's lots that can be improved upon, issues that need to be tackled and what not but following the League Cup draw the other night,  the anticipation of new signings, new strips, new scoreboard and the announcement of friendlies to come  my appetite has already been whetted for the new season to come.

 

Christ, Andy_P, that's much too sensible. Looking at out football, we should never get out of bed if we didn't think we could win the league but we still do, right?

I worked with an aged   communist who, as a boy,  saw us win the title in the 30s. He told me (I haven't checked it in the Motherwell Times or elsewhere yet) that gates were still low even  then, despite consistent 2nd places and one title.

We all know the dice are loaded within our football and in the MSM generally but do we fold up our tents and throw ourselves in the Clyde? In my lifetime we have never had a realistic chance of the title but I go along every year in hope of victories over the Ugly Sisters, some progression in our style and a cup run.

Very few teams in Europe have ever had a realistic chance of a championship in their national leagues but so what?

It's all about hope and loyalty in the face of dour reality, really,  but I'm a thrawn old bastard and I'm not alone.

COYW, forever.

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Can't go back to the 30's but can go as far back as early 50's as schoolboy fan and whilst I am hesitant to disagree with any communist :biggrin: my thoughts are that football in general then was far better supported so Motherwell must have shared in that. 130,000 plus at the 52 cup final would suggest that too.

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Good post Andy and a lot to consider. As I said I just feel like it's turning into F1, just a procession and in a competitive industry you have to have some form of hope. I've started threads on here with enthusiasm and rightly directed appreciation of both playing and backroom staff at the club last season. I've just lost that, maybe it's the mid season blues and 10 days to consider a final we didn't really fight like I hoped.

I don't think we can win the league but I also don't think anyone can outside the OF can either at present, you'd hope someone else could at least challenge. 25ish years and counting. Totally over it.

We've kinda hijacked this Scotland thread but I don't get the Celtic fans, its must be like buying pay-per-view boxing, staying up all night for it, and it lasts 30 seconds, but all these morons celebrate like it's something meaningful. Crags summed it up well here talking about Scott Brown winning POTY:

 

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Cadden gets 4 minutes and zero touch in a 2 nil defeat. Shame as Kenny McLean was labouring for ages and should have been hooked long ago. Cadden made a good run on 90mins that would have got him through on goal, but no vision from McBurnie who (is a total donkey) played it backwards. 

 

Keeper howler led to Peruvian first goal (penalty). Mulgrew ball watching at the second.

 

Murphy started and was subbed, that was extent of his night. No stand outs at all. 

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9 hours ago, Happy Dosser said:

Christ, Andy_P, that's much too sensible. Looking at out football, we should never get out of bed if we didn't think we could win the league but we still do, right?

 

My issue, isn't that Motherwell can't win the league, its that no one other than Celtic look like winning the league anytime soon...its a total turn-off. 

The leagues that Andy has cited such as Italy, may well be getting dominated by Juventus, but we all know that there are Clubs in that country who can put up a better fight against the dominant team over the course of a season, than we can do here.  

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1 hour ago, ONeils4oyarder said:

My issue, isn't that Motherwell can't win the league, its that no one other than Celtic look like winning the league anytime soon...its a total turn-off. 

 

Quite honestly there's not much difference for me between Celtic winning the league year on year and Celtic and Rangers/Sevco winning the league year after year. With a few exceptions thats how its always been since I began watching football. 

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I think it's great and it could help us convince the most promising young talents in the country to start their careers at the club. 

While the score wasn't great it's always good to see players in the C&A playing for Scotland.

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Scotland U21's game against France is being streamed on the Youtube page of FreeSports.  Might be just mine but the stream is ridiculously stop start but after the chat about Allan Campbell being played very deep against Togo in between the buffering it actually looks like he's playing almost in a centre-forward role at times.  He's certainly he's one of the players deployed furthest up the park.

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10 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

Scotland U21's game against France is being streamed on the Youtube page of FreeSports.  Might be just mine but the stream is ridiculously stop start

It's on the telly here on the BeIN Sports channel.

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