Scottish Premiership Game 2: St Johnstone (A) Saturday 12/08/17

[superward]

Watched the highlights this morning. Carson and Dunne will have theirs rescinded. No question. Awful and game changing decisons. McHugh definitely a booking but, fuck me, the BBC made it out like he had jumped in at waist height and chinned the boy with ravensteel.

[superward]

All this Craig Thompson stuff ,was he no the Ref when we played Sevco in the play offs ,if he was he certainly didn't show any bias in those games .

It's not bias. Just poor piss refereeing

[superward]

Just watched Comical Robbo's interview....

 

He must have been watching a different game.

Good to see your right back on your agenda.

[MFCL84]

The Carson sending off is a joke. I just don't were the goal scoring opportunity that has been denied. Kipre is shepherding the ball back, if Carson isn't there the ball gets launches for a throw or a corner. Only because Carson is where he is, does Kipre let him take it. Even when he takes it, it is so difficult to tell which side of the line it is that there is no way the ref can be sure that it is a foul, never mind decide to send him off.

[Wellarmy]

All this Craig Thompson stuff ,was he no the Ref when we played Sevco in the play offs ,if he was he certainly didn't show any bias in those games .

Bobby Madden was the ref at Ibrox and look at last week

[BigWeegieDosser]

The Carson sending off is a joke. I just don't were the goal scoring opportunity that has been denied. Kipre is shepherding the ball back, if Carson isn't there the ball gets launches for a throw or a corner. Only because Carson is where he is, does Kipre let him take it. Even when he takes it, it is so difficult to tell which side of the line it is that there is no way the ref can be sure that it is a foul, never mind decide to send him off.

For what it's worth, I think Carson should have had the savvy to just put his foot through it, no chances taken

McHugh, silly challenge for first yellow, even more stupid to give the ref a decision to make for the second.

Dunne? harsh pen AND a straight red. Seems excessive.

But I think on balance we should just suck it up and move on, on all counts.

Paranoia " it's the refs, they've got it in for us"

Is unhealthy, unhelpful and should be put to bed right away . "Infamy, infamy -they've all got it infamy" as Kenneth Williams once said,matron...

 

There's clear signs of a greater battling spirit than we've had for some time. Let's focus on that

[Lobey_Dosser]

The paranoia certainly needs to put to one side. The club will have learned from the McGhee saga last season.

[Andy H]

I don't think there is paranoia about the refs, they are just fucking incompetent. I'm the equivalent of a FIFA ref in another sport. If I performed like that I would not get a top tournament again

[Electric Blues]

Sieb is correct in that Thomson was some distance away and did not enjoy a good angle. I don't know what the SFA regulations state but if I wasn't 100% sure I would not issue a red card. Surely his decision wasn't based on probability ie I don't know if it was legal or not but probably wasn't; a 51/49 decision?

 

I suspect a large factor in his decision was the wild appealing from just about every member of the Saints team, including their fucking goalie, who was only marginally further away from the incident than Thomson. The only thing that should have swayed him was his assistant's lack of action, but no, he just had to unleash his inner fud.

[capt_oats]

 

I suspect a large factor in his decision was the wild appealing from just about every member of the Saints team, including their fucking goalie, who was only marginally further away from the incident than Thomson. The only thing that should have swayed him was his assistant's lack of action, but no, he just had to unleash his inner fud.

 

In fairness just because the linesman didn't flag doesn't mean there wasn't instruction given via their mics/earpiece.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's no way that either ref or linesman could say with certainty that there wasn't even a fraction of the ball on the line. They've made a game-changing decision based on a guess.

[CoF]

Given that we're relying ond folk pausing highlights to check the decision I don't think giving the call that Carson was out of his box is wildly unreasonable.

 

What I don't understand is the straight red. Why was that given?

[stuwell]

Deliberate handball?

For what it's worth I thought Carson was out of the box when he went down to collect the ball but stepped back as he picked it up - marginal if he was back in the box or not.

 

Also on the highlights about 4:30 in a St Johnstone player has a similar tackle to McHughs but the ref totally ingnores it as our player got the ball and jumps the challenge. The ball then goes to O'Halloran who then scores.

[capt_oats]

Given that we're relying ond folk pausing highlights to check the decision I don't think giving the call that Carson was out of his box is wildly unreasonable.

 

What I don't understand is the straight red. Why was that given?

 

The only reasonable explanation is that he viewed it as denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity. Which as far as I can see, it wasn't.

 

"Sending-off offences

A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:

• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)"

 

A Goalkeeper is subject to the same rules as an outfield player outside his box. That being the case then;

 

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following three offences:

• holds an opponent

• spits at an opponent

• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

 

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_football.cfm?page=3605

 

He's the incident, given the position and the fact that Carson is clearly favourite for the ball is it enough to say that's "denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity"? At worst it's "unsporting behaviour" which is a yellow card offence.

 

[daver]

 

In fairness just because the linesman didn't flag doesn't mean there wasn't instruction given via their mics/earpiece.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's no way that either ref or linesman could say with certainty that there wasn't even a fraction of the ball on the line. They've made a game-changing decision based on a guess.

 

Yes, but unless the referee is very close to an incident, a lot of decisions are made by guesswork, gut feeling, intuition, call it what you like what the referee is probably not 100% sure on a lot of decisions. He's still got to make a decision though.

 

The Sunday Herald's report says "Dunne seemed to foul Graham Cummins in the act of shooting solely through the use of some Jedi mind tricks, such was the lack of contact to the naked eye." Gave me a wee chuckle over my breakfast anyway. It also says Robinson's "entire post-match press conference had to be carefully deciphered through his incredulous laughter."

[capt_oats]

Yes, but unless the referee is very close to an incident, a lot of decisions are made by guesswork, gut feeling, intuition, call it what you like what the referee is probably not 100% sure on a lot of decisions. He's still got to make a decision though.

 

Well, quite but as decisions go if you're going to send of a team's goalkeeper then I think it's probably fair to hope that the referee was certain about its veracity. Otherwise maybe just err on the side of caution.

 

The questions he's asking there are:

- is the ball 100% outside the box when he handles it?

- is he denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity?

 

There's doubt on both of those tbh.

[daver]

I'll be surprised if we're successful with Carson's appeal to be honest. Rather than showing that there was doubt about the decision I believe we have to show 100% that the referee was wrong and I don't think there is 100% proof for that.

 

However Scott Brown was successful with his appeal last season so you never know, although perhaps I'm being a bit naive on that one.

[capt_oats]

I'll be surprised if we're successful with Carson's appeal to be honest. Rather than showing that there was doubt about the decision I believe we have to show 100% that the referee was wrong and I don't think there is 100% proof for that.

 

However Scott Brown was successful with his appeal last season so you never know, although perhaps I'm being a bit naive on that one.

 

We also got this bumped down to a yellow as well.

 

[BigWeegieDosser]

Personally,at £1000 per appeal, I'd rather use the money as a deposit on a functioning scoreboard.

All this picking over the bones is tiresome. I'm no doctor but I'm pretty sure the game passed on about 4.45 yesterday.

Let's leave resurrection to the appropriate faiths...

[Electric Blues]

Personally,at £1000 per appeal, I'd rather use the money as a deposit on a functioning scoreboard.

All this picking over the bones is tiresome. I'm no doctor but I'm pretty sure the game passed on about 4.45 yesterday.

Let's leave resurrection to the appropriate faiths...

Nothing will change the points and goal difference columns, granted, but getting one or two key players back who might swing the next game for us is surely worth considering. I also think you're on a sticky wicket if you expect the post mortem on a footie discussion forum not to run on a bit beyond 4:46 following a match with so many talking points.

[underboyleheating]

Back to the Carson incident, having watched it several times it was definitely just outside the box when he picked it up (millimetres!). However, there was no way the ref could have spotted that as he was too far away, the decision must have come from the linesman. If he did it was a good spot, as even after countless pauses on the video it’s not easy to see. What baffles me is why didn’t Carson not attempt to play it with his foot rather than risk picking it up?

[brainier]

Millimetres indeed and could easily be argued that a tiny part of the ball was above the line hence technically in the area so could be picked up. Not a definite goalscoring opportunity either so, in my opinion, not a red card offence. Too many doubts and not enough certainty for Thomson to make his decision.

[stuwell]

At the risk of upsetting BWD, I'd say from that picture, the ball is not yet in his grasp and is marginally on the line of the 18 yard box.

[star sail]

The more I look at these decisions over the years, the more I am convinced that the single biggest factor in a referee's decision is the reaction of the players, benches and fans.

 

Scott McDonald's sending off against Rangers last season is a perfect example of this. Had it not been Rangers and had it not been right in front of the dugouts, McDonald would not have been sent off. The Rangers impact is not because there is some conspiracy but simply because 6000 fans can make more noise than 2000. Managers and players rushing towards a referee is always going to have an impact no matter how much we wish it did not.

 

For as long as we rely upon human beings, with all the frailty's they bring, to make split second decisions when their senses are being bombarded with the sound and sights of a pressurised atmosphere, we can expect these decisions to continue.

 

Rangers and Celtic will always have an advantage in this respect because they can shout loudest and can bring more pressure to bear on the sub-conscience of referee's through the use of media and intimidation. No conspiracy, just human nature.

 

For me, the frailty's of referee's (and for that matter players) is something to be celebrated because it makes our game what it is.

[Kmcalpin]

At the risk of upsetting BWD, I'd say from that picture, the ball is not yet in his grasp and is marginally on the line of the 18 yard box.

My view entirely. Now take into account we have possibly the best photo available, unlike the match officials who had to make a split second decision. Its not clear if it is 100% outside the box and its not clear if he actually handles at the point the shot was taken - the ball was still moving. Carson seems to be looking directly at the ball and at close range and seems to have timed his save. Do we really think he made a mistake in handling outside of the box? We are quite right to question these decisions as the outcome of next week's game could depend on them. Margins are very fine indeed. Its not simply a case of chewing over old fat.

[Haggischomper]

Would never have happened if Samson was the goalie. He'd have been rooted to his line