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The Small-Medium Rebuild 2018'19

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8 hours ago, Big Stall said:

Tam Cowan just said that we are apparantly miles apart from what we have offered Hastie and what he wants. 

No surprise there then. Hastie's agent will be well aware of our wage structure and what we, as a club, can afford. He / she is at it and knows full well that we cannot meet their demands. Maybe a negotiating tactic maybe not. Although very promising, Hastie has yet to be tested against top six opposition and they should not be allowed to ignore that.

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:46 AM, weeyin said:

When did we last get "caught out"? 

The timing of these deals it tricky. For every Hastie and Turnbull there are a dozen Bob McHughs, Craig Moores and Dom Thomases who never make it in the first team. We can't afford to splash out on all of them and hope one or two make it.

 

I hope Hastie does sign in fact I am praying he signs. I may be wrong but I think the last time was not that long ago and was with Erwin. We ended up getting a decent wedge from Leeds in any case. 

I know it is not an exact science, but my Q to the club is were u going to offer Hastie a contract extension even before his appearance in the 1st team. Surely we would have been in a position to do so for him, Scott and Maguire before now. 

The key point is we have made it a lot harder now that he has played a few games and starred. If you believe the articles I am reading there are now up to 6 to 7 English clubs watching him and I am sure his agent is well aware of this. We all agree and it has been proven that leaving to early has an adverse effect on your career. So hopefully we can get this sorted, but my concern is we have left it too late. 

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19 hours ago, Big Stall said:

Tam Cowan just said that we are apparantly miles apart from what we have offered Hastie and what he wants. 

That's already what was reported in the tabloids. Also the same as what was reported for Turnbull. 

Plenty of scouts there but not one solid article on the internet from an in the know source. It's all fan sites and opinion sites. 

I wouldn't could to het up on Hastie leaving quite yet....he can certainly command a higher wage from us than he could in December due to his revent few performances and the fact Turnbull got a higher wage than originally planned too. Agent just doing what agents do

 

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38 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

I hope Hastie does sign in fact I am praying he signs. I may be wrong but I think the last time was not that long ago and was with Erwin. We ended up getting a decent wedge from Leeds in any case. 

I know it is not an exact science, but my Q to the club is were u going to offer Hastie a contract extension even before his appearance in the 1st team. Surely we would have been in a position to do so for him, Scott and Maguire before now. 

The key point is we have made it a lot harder now that he has played a few games and starred. If you believe the articles I am reading there are now up to 6 to 7 English clubs watching him and I am sure his agent is well aware of this. We all agree and it has been proven that leaving to early has an adverse effect on your career. So hopefully we can get this sorted, but my concern is we have left it too late. 

I guess until he played a few first team games there was always a degree of not knowing if he could make the step up. In truth there still is given he’s yet to play against the top teams. The club have to balance that with the level of contract they offer him, start breaking the wage structure and the risk is the club spiral back into debt. Regarding Scott and Maguire they are still far from the finished article. I watched  Maguire lately against Thistle and he obviously has talent but made a couple of costly mistakes. Robinson stated lately they have offered contracts to Scott and Maguire, I would imagine those contracts are at a sensible level.

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6 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

I hope Hastie does sign in fact I am praying he signs. I may be wrong but I think the last time was not that long ago and was with Erwin. We ended up getting a decent wedge from Leeds in any case. 

We didn't get "caught out" though. In fact, quite the opposite - we stuck by Erwin when he had long term injuries and renewed his deals even when he was unable to play. He had his head turned by "better" offers when we had a good one on the table, and the rest his history.

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We should be offering him a first team wage.

If the club play the poverty card here after wasting so much money this season questions will need to be asked.

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53 minutes ago, steelboy said:

We should be offering him a first team wage.

If the club play the poverty card here after wasting so much money this season questions will need to be asked.

I would image his offer will be very much at a first team level, just where it is next to our higher earners.

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1 hour ago, steelboy said:

We should be offering him a first team wage.

Do you know what is on offer, or just making a wild guess?

Even offering him a first team wage doesn't mean it isn't miles away from what he wants.

And we don't want to follow the Dundee Utd model of tying down every youngster on 5 or 6 year contracts on high salaries.

(Plus there's still the chance he could be the next Paul Mills or Paul Tracey).

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:15 AM, Neilwell86 said:

apparently we have offered Declan Gallagher of Livingston, centre back, a contract for next season

Conflicting rumours on Pie and Bovril this morning.  Mitch claims that he'll sign a Pre Contract  Agreement with us this week; a St Johnstone fan says he'll sign for them; and a third poster says there's several offers on his table.   Without being party to inside knowledge its impossible to say which one is right.   Add to that, Stephen Robinson quoted as saying PCAs aren't worth the paper they're written on, and everything is as clear as mud. 

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I think what worked against Livingstone was when he came on as an early sub against Celtic and had to be subbed himself because he was knackered. At the time Robinson mentioned he needed to get his fitness up to the levels required for the first team, and it was a good lesson for what he, and the other youngsters, need to do to get those opportunities.

I imagine we'll see more of him this season.

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12 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Conflicting rumours on Pie and Bovril this morning.  Mitch claims that he'll sign a Pre Contract  Agreement with us this week; a St Johnstone fan says he'll sign for them; and a third poster says there's several offers on his table.   Without being party to inside knowledge its impossible to say which one is right.   Add to that, Stephen Robinson quoted as saying PCAs aren't worth the paper they're written on, and everything is as clear as mud. 

Have we ever signed someone who's done time in the pokey before? 

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2 minutes ago, superward said:

Have we ever signed someone who's done time in the pokey before? 

We had Dennis Nilsen on the books at one time.

Oh no, tell a lie, that was Gunnar Nielsen.

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10 hours ago, Electric Blues said:

We had Dennis Nilsen on the books at one time.

Oh no, tell a lie, that was Gunnar Nielsen.

well your not far off the mark, cause he wiz MURDER ,,,,,,boom,boom 

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On 2/10/2019 at 2:32 PM, steelboy said:

We should be offering him a first team wage.

If the club play the poverty card here after wasting so much money this season questions will need to be asked.

No bother mystic meg.

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On 2/10/2019 at 2:32 PM, steelboy said:

We should be offering him a first team wage.

If the club play the poverty card here after wasting so much money this season questions will need to be asked.

I'm sure we have offered him a first team wage; but it also depends on how realistic his demands are.  No doubt negotiation tactics are clouding the discussions for ordinary fans like us.  Are you saying that if the club says it can't afford to meet his wage demands, whatever they are, then questions need to be asked?  

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On 2/9/2019 at 8:18 AM, mfc88 said:

I really hope hastie and all our other young talent for that matter look at the careers of lee erwin, ben hall, robbie leitch etc to see that chasing the money early on doesn't usually pay off. Another one is matt kennedy of st j, left killie after a few promising appearances and now, arguably, he's 5 years behind where he could/should be.

Ben Hall? Isn't he out on loan while having renewed his deal with Brighton for another year in 2018? He's most likely doing very well financially in comparison to what we could offer him, and he's still on the books of a Premiership club.

Matt Kennedy left St Johnstone because Everton came calling. Very few footballers worth their salt would turn down a move like that, unless they thought they weren't actually good enough of course. He signed on a three year deal, guaranteeing him three years of decent cash most likely, while allowing him to learn the game at a higher level. He then went to Cardiff on a 3 and a half year deal, where I doubt the wages were pocket change.

Now he's back in Scotland with St Johnstone, still only 24 years old, has a shitload more experience than he would have had if he hadn't left, and his bank account is probably healthier as well.

On 2/9/2019 at 8:18 AM, mfc88 said:

I know, I know.... short careers, could get injured and so on..... but surely you'd rather make a name for yourself in the game?

Than make money? Probably not. Last I checked I couldn't pay my mortgage or help put my kids through school on my reputation.

For some reason many football fans don't seem to realise that this is these guys jobs. It's what they do for a living. If a company came along to us in our job and offered us far more money to do the same job for them we'd be offski in a heartbeat. No nonsense about staying at the smaller company to "learn the trade" or to "build a reputation."

You're in the game to make money and win things, in that order most of the time. We see plenty of legends hawking their medals and trinkets to raise money for themselves, but very rarely do we see a retired multi-millionaire footballer crying into his versace pillowcase about not winning a few more Scottish cups or a league title.

You get in, make as much money as you can at the highest level possible before you're old and broken down and have to retire.

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Ben Hall - not had a sniff in 2.5 years on loan at league 2

 

Matt Kennedy - More clubs than tiger woods back at the same level he left 7 years ago.

 

Both players - Richer.

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Well, Brighton saw enough to take up that extra year option on Hall's deal, and Kennedy got a move to Cardiff, which likely brought a decent wage and a nice signing bonus as well.

And if we're honest, for most players being richer when they call time on their career is all that really matters.

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I don't think you can make that decision for them.

I don't see it being a giant leap that plenty pros would rather have won something or played more for the sake of a few quid.

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44 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

I don't think you can make that decision for them.

I don't see it being a giant leap that plenty pros would rather have won something or played more for the sake of a few quid.

I don't need to make that decision for them, they made it themselves when they left their first clubs and the promise of "developing into better players" for the chance to make it on a bigger stage for a higher financial reward.

The thing is, for the most part both winning things and earning more money are connected. The teams who generally win things are the ones paying the higher wages, so it makes sense to chase the money, as the accolades will usually follow if you're good enough.

like Andy Robertson, for example. One good season at Dundee United before he left for Hull City. If he'd failed there, went out on loan a few times and returned to Scotland he'd no doubt he used as another example of a player who "left too soon" and could have developed more before moving on.

But he's done well and is a terrific example that if you're good enough, have the right work ethic and your head screwed on you can succeed at the highest level.

And if you're not good enough? You can usually find a way back to the safety net of where you were before, can't you? Be it leaving Killie and returning to St Johnstone a few years later, or leaving Motherwell and coming back to Killie as Erwin did. 

The main difference is that you'll have boosted your bank account a bit, which will come in handy when you're 45 and the fans and clubs no longer really give a shit about you. At that point it's just you and your family, and being able to support them financially is what really matters, even over & above a few meaningless trophies that won't pay the mortgage I'd reckon.

If Hastie moves on and decides to make a fist of cracking into a side in the English championship for more coin than we could ever hope to pay him then good on him. It's a short career and you strike when the iron is hot. Those clubs may not be around if you suffer a dip in form or an injury, or the manager changes and the new guy doesn't rate you.

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Andy Robertson was signed as a first team starter for Hull and that 's the big difference. Joining a club for more cash but a permanent slot in the reserves is not always a good career move. Guys that have left Scotland and done well tend to be the guys who have been signed with the intention of being first team starters. John McGinn is another recent example of that, as is Kipre.

 I could be wrong, but I doubt Ben Hall is getting better experience by playing  for the worst team in England than he would have received playing first team football for us.

It's all a trade off, though, for longer term gain vs short term cash. And when you are a youngster,  the draw of doubling your salary or better must be tempting. 

I'd never disparage any player who wants to grab the cash - just suggest they listen to advice from experienced players and managers they trust before they decide.

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