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The 'Magnificent' David Turnbull Discussion Thread

On Motherwell's handling of the David Turnbull situation, what are your thoughts (assuming no minimum release clause)?  

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  1. 1. On Motherwell's handling of the David Turnbull situation, what are your thoughts (assuming no minimum release clause)?

    • Happy we have accepted the quoted fee of 3.25m + add ons.
    • Think we should have held out for more, but still sold this summer
    • Think we should have kept David for at least one more season
    • Happy we have accepted the quoted fee of 3.25m + add ons, but shouldn't have accepted a bid from a club in Scotland
    • Other thoughts. Please comment


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1 hour ago, texanwellfan said:

I’m assuming we’ll be getting him to the specialist ASAP? Any word on that? 

 

1 hour ago, fizoxy said:

I read somewhere he’s getting his op tomorrow.

It might be wishful thinking , but I 'd  prefer not to hear anything for the next month or so and let the lad and the medical teams do their thing.

there  is a media circus around Davie just now and it'll not help having every move scrutinised , and our club , through no fault , is not in control of the 'story' for now so some quiet time and hopefully the circus will move on to look elsewhere , Whilst David recuperates and starts his re-hab

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1 hour ago, fizoxy said:

I read somewhere he’s getting his op tomorrow.

Ties in with what I've read - travelling to London to have his operation carried out by a top specialist this week. 

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12 hours ago, Brazilian said:

there  is a media circus around Davie just now and it'll not help having every move scrutinised , and our club , through no fault , is not in control of the 'story' for now so some quiet time and hopefully the circus will move on to look elsewhere , Whilst David recuperates and starts his re-hab

Unfortunately, I think the media scrutiny, in this country anyway, will continue until he either signs for Celtic or moves down south. A slight positive I guess is that in most reports our club is an afterthought. He's "David Turnbull, who's dream move to Celtic sensationally fell through" rather than "David Turnbull, Motherwell player."

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The disappointing thing to me (outside of the surgery issues) is that another Scottish talent felt that Celtic was a better option than taking a shot at the EPL.

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8 minutes ago, weeyin said:

The disappointing thing to me (outside of the surgery issues) is that another Scottish talent felt that Celtic was a better option than taking a shot at the EPL.

I think it was a good career move, better chance of game time against weaker opposition,  giving him more time to develop his talent  and still close to family while he matures before moving south.

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9 minutes ago, weeyin said:

The disappointing thing to me (outside of the surgery issues) is that another Scottish talent felt that Celtic was a better option than taking a shot at the EPL.

Possibly more about being closer to home. Clearly it was not all about cash either. He weighed up what he wanted and chose Celtic. That’s his right. 

Anyway, hope all goes well with his surgery. That’s far more important than any hang up  over who he chose.

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49 minutes ago, stuwell said:

I think it was a good career move, better chance of game time against weaker opposition,  giving him more time to develop his talent  and still close to family while he matures before moving south.

You develop by matching up against better players, not weaker ones. Case in point, Nicky Law when he went to League Two Rangers. Compare that to McGinn when he ended up at Villa rather than Celtic - now there is talk of a move to Man Utd. 

I'm not picking on Turnbull specifiically, but there is a general lack of ambition (or confidence) in Scottish players that is a symptom of our overall game. And it's been going on for years. Even players that go down to league one or two and scurry back home after a season because they can't hack it. 

Our squad would be pretty thin if English players didn't take the step up (and the journey in the opposite direction) to the Scottish Premiership.

 

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McGinn chose to drop down to the Championship for 2 seasons when he was 21, I'm not sure he really supports that point.

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1 hour ago, Yassin said:

McGinn chose to drop down to the Championship for 2 seasons when he was 21, I'm not sure he really supports that point.

Then you are completely missing the point in either an intentional way, or an obtuse way - unless McGinn turned down an EPL offer to play for Hibs.

 

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McGinn was a couple of months away from his 24th birthday when he signed for Villa. Bit of a difference moving away from family and friends at 24 years old rather than 19 years old. 

It's easy for us to say as adults that the smartest move is to England where there's more money and a higher level of competition, but I'm not sure if we'd be willing to do the same at that age given the choice (although I'm sure there'll be a few on here who'll tell me that they moved from Glasgow to London to find work as a chimney sweep at 14 or something).

I fully expect Turnbull at 24 years old to be thinking differently about his career than he is at 19. There's really no rush to go down south, he could have signed for Celtic, seen out the entirely of the deal they offered him and still be the same age McGinn was when he left Hibs.

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I can see my point is still being missed, but I'll take the blame for not explaining it very well.

Turnbull is one of many Scottish players over the last decade or two who have either turned down moves to England (or abroad) *at any age*,  or who have spent one season and come running back home. It's a trend that, in my opinion, is part of the deeper issues in the Scottish game.

It wasn't that long ago, Scottish players - some from the lower divisions - were making moves down south to further their career e.g.

Steve Nichol from Ayr Utd to Liverpool when he was 19, Andy Gray from Dundee Utd to Aston Villa when he was 19, Pat Nevin from Clyde to Chelsea when he was 19, Alan Hansen from Partick Thistle to Liverpool when he was 22, Gary McAllister from Motherwell to Leicester City when he was 20, Steve Clarke from St Mirren to Chelsea when he was 24.

None of them feeling the need to keep their commute to a short drive to Glasgow. All of them prospered after their moves.

Even our own McKinstry took the leap to join Leeds at the ripe old age of 16.

It's not a criticsm of any player. Everyone is free to make their living however they see fit. It's just very noticable that there has been a lot of traffic heading North up the M74 and A1 in recent years, but much less heading south and I think that is a major factor in the overall poor health of our national game. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, weeyin said:

Turnbull is one of many Scottish players over the last decade or two who have either turned down moves to England (or abroad) *at any age*,  or who have spent one season and come running back home. It's a trend that, in my opinion, is part of the deeper issues in the Scottish game.

And what issues are those? You're looking at this as purely a footballing issue, which is a mistake, as football is only a part of such a move. 

The truth is, a lot of players, for various reasons, are happy enough to sacrifice being paid an exorbitant amount of money in favour of being paid very fucking well to play football in their home country. Money isn't everything to many players.

Also, often times it's not just the choice of the player. I know for a fact if I walked into my living room this evening and told my other half that she better start packing her stuff because we're moving to Yorkshire, Norfolk or Sunderland she'd laugh in my face and tell me to sort myself out. Her parents are nearby, her friends, her life. Even moreso if we were already living the kind of comfortable life that any player who sees interest from down south is living in Scotland.

Some players have children in school, who have their friends and their family around them. Would I, in theory, be able to tell my parents that I'm taking their grandkids down south because making a couple of grand per week in Scotland isn't good enough when I could be making tens of thousands living and plying my trade in some town or city in England? I honestly don't know the answer to that. 

The simple fact is, every player is different, and those who turn down the riches and competition of down south to remain in their home country are no less ambitious or competitive than players who choose to move elsewhere.

2 hours ago, weeyin said:

It's not a criticsm of any player. Everyone is free to make their living however they see fit. It's just very noticable that there has been a lot of traffic heading North up the M74 and A1 in recent years, but much less heading south and I think that is a major factor in the overall poor health of our national game. 

Wait, surely if we have Scottish players knocking back more money to play down south and staying up here, and English players coming up to play here it actually shows how well regarded our game is in comparison to the lower leagues down south, no? If our game was in "overall poor health" then wouldn't we have players leaving in droves?

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On 7/2/2019 at 2:43 PM, weeyin said:

You develop by matching up against better players, not weaker ones. Case in point, Nicky Law when he went to League Two Rangers. Compare that to McGinn when he ended up at Villa rather than Celtic - now there is talk of a move to Man Utd. 

I'm not picking on Turnbull specifiically, but there is a general lack of ambition (or confidence) in Scottish players that is a symptom of our overall game. And it's been going on for years. Even players that go down to league one or two and scurry back home after a season because they can't hack it. 

Our squad would be pretty thin if English players didn't take the step up (and the journey in the opposite direction) to the Scottish Premiership.

 

i do get the impression that there are  fewer Scottish players heading South in comparison to years past.  Certainly first team players. You suggest it is down to lack of ambition or confidence but I think it is mostly down to lack of opportunity and factors in England and Europe that have dramatically changed over the past 30 years.

You quote Nicholl. Gray, Nevin etc as examples but in those days there were far fewer foreign Owners/Managers/Coaches/Recruitment Staff in England with a vast knowledge of the market in Europe and even further afield. And a lot more with a working knowledge of the Scottish and Irish markets and little knowledge of European Leagues. Plus there was much less cash flying around (No Sky billions). Put those factors together and it is no real surprise that many English Clubs....even in lower leagues..... nowadays recruit extensively from overseas,  Also add increasing media coverage of European /US football  andInternational tournaments such as African Cup of Nations, World and European Under 19s. 20s etc etc bringing many more players into the transfer mix. These players often have a much higher profile than  good Scottish players who play for a team other than Celtic and possibly Rangers. in short it is a much wider market place.

I do think there is still a market in England for players from Scottish Clubs, but nowadays the focus has changed to youngsters such as McKinstray or foreign imports such as Virgil Van Dijk who have proved themselves on the European stage.  Lindsay at Barnsley, Cooper at Leeds and Fraser at Bournemouth are examples of players, who when given the opportunity as youngsters were ambitious and confident enough to head South. Turnbull opted not to.  I am sure many others would also make that move, given the opportunity and personal circumstances permitting.

I don't think the lack of players heading to England is about either ambition or confidence.

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58 minutes ago, David said:

Wait, surely if we have Scottish players knocking back more money to play down south and staying up here, and English players coming up to play here it actually shows how well regarded our game is in comparison to the lower leagues down south, no? If our game was in "overall poor health" then wouldn't we have players leaving in droves?

That's one way of looking at it.

I see it as not enough Scottish talent making the grade and their slots being filled by lower league English players looking to progress their careers. 

Used to be Scottish teams would bring in Scottish First Divison, Second Division and Junior League players into their squads, but that happens much less too. I know Bosman changed the landscape of football to some extent, but that only partially explains the comparitve dearth of domestic talent these days. 

The litmus test for all this is the quality and performances of the national team.

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From what I understand and it came from a seemingly decent source.

Norwich's offer was more substantial financially, however they suggested they seen his progression initially in the U23's or loaned out.

When they went back to Celtic, the money was more than the first offer but crucially he was offered the scope to compete for a first team place.

Based on that I don't think we can question if he felt he was good enough, unless you want to question if a 19 year old, 30 first team games down can walk right into a Premiership midfield.

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2 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

From what I understand and it came from a seemingly decent source.

Norwich's offer was more substantial financially, however they suggested they seen his progression initially in the U23's or loaned out.

When they went back to Celtic, the money was more than the first offer but crucially he was offered the scope to compete for a first team place.

Based on that I don't think we can question if he felt he was good enough, unless you want to question if a 19 year old, 30 first team games down can walk right into a Premiership midfield.

I’m sure when Norwich signed Kenny McLean from Aberdeen they loaned him back to them for 6 months

I think Turnbull has come on by leaps and bounds since he made his 1st team debut with us but he is still a work in progress

As I have said on previous posts would his development be best served being coached by Neil Lennon and his staff or by the coaching staff at Norwich who nearly all came from Dortmund and learned their trade under Klopp.

From the Norwich midfielders below who exactly is Turnbull going to replace ???

Vrancic              German international U17 U19 U20, Bosnia full international 

Leitner                German international U17 U19 U20 U21

Buendi                 Spanish international U19, Argentina international U20

Stiepermann    German international U15 U16 U17 U18 U19 U20

Trybull                  German international U17 U18 U19 U20

McLean                Scotland U19 U21, Scotland full international 

Hernandez         German U18

Tettey                    Norway U18 U19 U21 Norway full international 

Thompson            Wales U19 U21

Cantwell               England U17

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2 hours ago, weeyin said:

That's one way of looking at it.

I see it as not enough Scottish talent making the grade and their slots being filled by lower league English players looking to progress their careers. 

Used to be Scottish teams would bring in Scottish First Divison, Second Division and Junior League players into their squads, but that happens much less too. I know Bosman changed the landscape of football to some extent, but that only partially explains the comparitve dearth of domestic talent these days. 

The litmus test for all this is the quality and performances of the national team.

But is there a dearth of young Scottish talent? Plenty of promising youngsters around, and getting game time in the SPL.  Kerr at Saint Johnstone, McKenna is still young, Turnbull, Campbell , several at Celtic, Rangers (including Hastie), Hibs and Hearts.  And I'm sure fans of most clubs could come up with their own young hopefuls. Plenty of folk think the lack of success at National level might be more about who is managing those teams coupled with the whole antiquated SFA set up and it's old boys network. Rather than lack of raw talent.

Billy Gimour, Ryan Gauld and David Bates are three scottish youngsters who fairly recently showed plenty of self belief in moving to England, Portugal and Germany respectively. If I recall correctly there were plenty of folk questioning why those youngsters were intent on leaving Scotland at such a young age. Can't have it both ways.

The talent is out there.

 

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1 hour ago, dennyc said:

But is there a dearth of young Scottish talent? Plenty of promising youngsters around, and getting game time in the SPL.  Kerr at Saint Johnstone, McKenna is still young, Turnbull, Campbell , several at Celtic, Rangers (including Hastie), Hibs and Hearts.  And I'm sure fans of most clubs could come up with their own young hopefuls. Plenty of folk think the lack of success at National level might be more about who is managing those teams coupled with the whole antiquated SFA set up and it's old boys network. Rather than lack of raw talent.

Billy Gimour, Ryan Gauld and David Bates are three scottish youngsters who fairly recently showed plenty of self belief in moving to England, Portugal and Germany respectively. If I recall correctly there were plenty of folk questioning why those youngsters were intent on leaving Scotland at such a young age. Can't have it both ways.

The talent is out there.

 

If you look at our young national squads success at qualifying for tournaments in the last 20 years, it's almost as unimpressive as the senior team.

For as long as I've been watching football, there has been good young players in their teens, but we are terrible at developing them as much as other European countries seem able to do. There have been a few more good youngsters come through recently - often as a side effect of teams like ourselves, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd etc. having financial contstraints - but if our history is anything to go by, most of them will have good, but not great careers. The last really successful young Scottish team I remember was the 1982 Andy Roxburgh side that won the U18 Euros back in the early 80s (John Philliben scored in that final, along with Pat Nevin and Gary Mackay). When was the last time Stirling Albion produced a youth international like Philliben? Or Clyde produce a Nevin?

This isn't really news though. We all know the Scottish game needs an overhaul from top to bottom. We also know that nobody in power will ever do that while the short term interests of the OF and others are the prevailing mentality.

As I said, I don't blame any youngster taking a particular career path. I just see it as a symptom of the underlying issues of our game - not as the cause. It won't stop me watching and enjoying my football across all the SPFL divisions - I just don't hold out much hope of seeing the improvements being made that could raise the overall quality.

 

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I believe that the manner in which coaches like Scott Gemmill stifle the natural talent of players in matches is as much to blame for poor results as anything. Players seldom play to the same standard we see week in week out at Club level. Why not? 

Watching Alan Campbell...and before that Chris Cadden.. playing for Scotland, it’s like they are playing with the brakes on. Campbell is so deep he might as well be playing at Centre Back. Gemmill and the rest are more focused on frustrating the opposition than playing to the skills of our own youngsters. The fear of losing is the driver. Hard for players to give of their best and progress at International level when the coaches  are totally negative.

Flair Players like Middleton of Rangers and Johnstone  of Celtic must  be relieved to get back to their Clubs. There are others. 

Even the girlies team seem scared to express themselves as Shelley Kerr takes the same approach into games. Following the party line.  

Hopefully Clarke will change our approach, but I doubt it.

I genuinely believe there is good young talent out there. Throughout the Divisions.  Perhaps more so than ten years ago. And they are ambitious and confident. Norwich are about to sign an 18 year old midfielder from Partick Thistle for £350k. Perhaps that answers your Clyde/Nevin or Dumbarton/ Phillibin question. Time will tell.

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16 hours ago, weeyin said:

That's one way of looking at it.

I see it as not enough Scottish talent making the grade and their slots being filled by lower league English players looking to progress their careers. 

I guess it comes down to the old "is the glass half full or half empty" approach. Personally, I see it as a sign that our game as a whole is improving and attracting players from down south, who see a move to Scotland as a way to further their careers if they're good enough.

16 hours ago, weeyin said:

Used to be Scottish teams would bring in Scottish First Divison, Second Division and Junior League players into their squads, but that happens much less too. I know Bosman changed the landscape of football to some extent, but that only partially explains the comparitve dearth of domestic talent these days.

Yeah, but you're idea of "used to be" is 30 odd years ago. Aside from the fact that it's still 11 players on a team with a ball being kicked about it's hardly even the same sport nowadays. Back when those players you mentioned were making the move down south the footballing world was a lot smaller. Foreign players from such exotic locales as South America and Eastern Europe were the exception rather than the norm.

Clubs have access to a wider talent pool today, so it makes sense that English clubs would choose to look further afield than Scotland and other home countries. Our clubs are doing the same. I don't necessarily believe it's a case of our talent levels dwindling as it is more choice being available from across the globe. Scouting and tracking of foreign players today is totally different from 30 years ago.

12 hours ago, weeyin said:

For as long as I've been watching football, there has been good young players in their teens, but we are terrible at developing them as much as other European countries seem able to do.

What other European nations though? The only European nation of similar size to us that I can think of that's really done well producing players is Croatia. The likes of Ireland, Norway, Finland, Slovakia etc are all pretty similar to us when it comes to developing players.

The landscape in football has changed drastically over the past 30 years. As I mentioned, it's hardly even the same sport in many ways.

12 hours ago, weeyin said:

There have been a few more good youngsters come through recently - often as a side effect of teams like ourselves, Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd etc. having financial contstraints - but if our history is anything to go by, most of them will have good, but not great careers. The last really successful young Scottish team I remember was the 1982 Andy Roxburgh side that won the U18 Euros back in the early 80s (John Philliben scored in that final, along with Pat Nevin and Gary Mackay). When was the last time Stirling Albion produced a youth international like Philliben? Or Clyde produce a Nevin?

Again, you're talking almost 40 years ago when you mention the early 80's. Totally different footballing world, and also a totally different world as far as general society goes. As someone who was a kid back then you had a few options when you weren't at school. Either stay in the house and do fuck all, or go out and play football.

Today though? There's internet access, there's Netflix, there's mobile phones, there's Xbox and Playstation. In all honesty, if me and my pals had the option as kids to either go out to a rain-soaked patch of grass with a ball and play football in the cold or stay at home, hook up the Playstation and stick on the headphones and play football online against each other online (as well as against other kids from across the globe) I don't think I'd have played as much football outside either. 

There will always be kids who play football, but there's more options now. That's just a fact.

There's a danger of becoming the very people we used to mock as kids, the types who'd watch a football game in 1990 and say "Pffft, this shite isn't a patch on the stuff from the 50's. I remember when players had proper haircuts and goalkeepers didn't wear gloves."

Another thing to consider is that international football is totally different now as well. There's far more fans out there (myself included, in all honesty) who see international football as nothing more than something that gets in the way of club football. As the game becomes more global and fans identify more with club football the international scene becomes less important. 

12 hours ago, weeyin said:

As I said, I don't blame any youngster taking a particular career path.

You're not blaming them, but you're claiming that unless they head down south they don't have ambition or confidence:

On 7/2/2019 at 2:43 PM, weeyin said:

I'm not picking on Turnbull specifiically, but there is a general lack of ambition (or confidence) in Scottish players that is a symptom of our overall game.

 

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9 hours ago, dennyc said:

I believe that the manner in which coaches like Scott Gemmill stifle the natural talent of players in matches is as much to blame for poor results as anything. Players seldom play to the same standard we see week in week out at Club level. Why not? 

Watching Alan Campbell...and before that Chris Cadden.. playing for Scotland, it’s like they are playing with the brakes on. Campbell is so deep he might as well be playing at Centre Back. Gemmill and the rest are more focused on frustrating the opposition than playing to the skills of our own youngsters. The fear of losing is the driver. Hard for players to give of their best and progress at International level when the coaches  are totally negative.

Flair Players like Middleton of Rangers and Johnstone  of Celtic must  be relieved to get back to their Clubs. There are others. 

Even the girlies team seem scared to express themselves as Shelley Kerr takes the same approach into games. Following the party line.  

Hopefully Clarke will change our approach, but I doubt it.

I genuinely believe there is good young talent out there. Throughout the Divisions.  Perhaps more so than ten years ago. And they are ambitious and confident. Norwich are about to sign an 18 year old midfielder from Partick Thistle for £350k. Perhaps that answers your Clyde/Nevin or Dumbarton/ Phillibin question. Time will tell.

Disagree with the Campbell playing deep part, I have watched the u20's on a few occasions and if anything he is playing too far forward, almost behind the striker. However we could be watching completely different games and he has been deployed differently in both. Either way I am sure we can agree that both are the wrong place to play him.

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6 minutes ago, Neilwell86 said:

Disagree with the Campbell playing deep part, I have watched the u20's on a few occasions and if anything he is playing too far forward, almost behind the striker. However we could be watching completely different games and he has been deployed differently in both. Either way I am sure we can agree that both are the wrong place to play him.

The games I saw him he mostly ended up playing one twos with Kerr the Centre Back and he hardly crossed the half way line. Maybe in the Toulon Tournament when our tactics seemed to be to lump the ball forward to the big striker from Everton?  Certainly it was not the energetic Campbell I see playing for and driving Motherwell forward. He could have been played as you say in other games but either way it’s certainly not playing to his strengths. Stifled is the way I see it.

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18 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

From what I understand and it came from a seemingly decent source.

Norwich's offer was more substantial financially, however they suggested they seen his progression initially in the U23's or loaned out.

When they went back to Celtic, the money was more than the first offer but crucially he was offered the scope to compete for a first team place.

Based on that I don't think we can question if he felt he was good enough, unless you want to question if a 19 year old, 30 first team games down can walk right into a Premiership midfield.

Big clubs signing players and then "loaning" them out (for whatever reason) isn't a new concept. When Celtic signed Kenny Dalglish, Jock Stein sent him back to Cumbernauld Utd in the Juniors for a season to "help toughen him up and learn his trade".   I think that one worked out okay.

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With the benefit of hindsight it would probably have made more sense for Turnbull to take the Norwich deal under the proviso that he be loaned back to Motherwell for a season or even two. He'd have been making more money, but still been close to family and friends with the opportunity to play regularly for at least another season.

That was obviously before the medical stuff came to the fore, of course.

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One of the worst things to come out of the saga is the amount of vermin who are all over posts/threads on social media about Turnbull. 

Its his 20th birthday today and anything online is hijacked by ‘see you soon Davey Bhoy’ or the likes. 

Imagine their outrage if say Arsenal fans where doing that to Tierney.  They would be apoplectic 

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