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Kmcalpin

2019 Finances/AGM

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Small point from someone who will not be seeing the accounts.  While the club may try and set aside a contingency fund for unexpected bills from last year's profit.  After doing that it should try and live within its turnover.  Without knowing what capital allowances can be claimed, the previous year's profit might see some of it disappear to HMRC but by offsetting this year's loss against last year's profit, this could reduce any tax owed to HMRC.  Whether the loss reflects the timing of monies being paid for transfers, I have no idea as I say I have not seen the accounts.

 

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Its worth noting that the annual accounts state that ongoing financial support from the Well Society is necessary to keep the club as a going concern or words to that effect. That caveat can't be understated.

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AGM time again.  As ever lots of good discussion and info gleaned. Quite a long one this year as things got quite detailed on one or two points. 

Jim McMahon spoke of as positive a situation in a while. A "normal" situation. At worst case the club are in a position to finish tenth, have no player sales, have no cup runs and be able to knock back bids and still be able to cope with a loss for a year or so. 

Happily things are much more rosy than that the worst case next year will be a cash neutral position. 

The importance of staying up is the key risk going forward. Dundee Utd and their lost millions were cited but later Alan Burrows spoke of the potential to come in the form of increased TV revenue and the fall out from the new UEFA competition and through solidarity payments. The phrase transformational was used. 

There may also be consequences to domestic football to accommodate the changing shape of European football with potentially less domestic top flight league fans and no cup replays some possible outcomes. 

Looking ahead the club are keen to do something to improve training facilities with Stephen Robinson mentioning plans and ideas that had been considered. 

The club still want to get to a safe point where they have two "bad seasons" worth of finance  to cover them for eventualities although they acknowledge the stadium still remains something that could unexpectedly eat into finances. 

Well Society input amounts to around £180k a year currently. 

On David Turnbull the club turned numerous bids until the point was reached where they felt it irresponsible not to accept the offer from Celtic knowing how much that could set the club up. They believe it was right to accept and they got the best deal. 

No timescales for his return but seeing a specialist to step things up further and he will go to Tenerife on the break. 

Positive talks about extending his contract between player, agent and club. Hopefully good news soon. No reason why he can't return to previous levels. Robinson quipped he was never fast to begin with so even if he does lose pace... 

Budget was increased after review over last year but still srcond/third lowest in league. Robinson knows the parameters and what the club is about. 

Gallagher, Seedorf and Polworth all knocked back better terms to come. Club have gained a rep for providing a platform to improve and develop players for next career move. 

Potential for one outgoing and one or two arrivals at the break. 

Investment made in staff too. Conscious that vultures swooping on staff as well as players. 

Hastie situation resolved amicably with a sell on included. Cadden not so. Anticipated to run for some time yet. An example given of Kidderminster who believed they were entitled to a portion of Marvin Johnson's sell on from Oxford two years ago. 

Dundee likely to £15/£10/£5 not confirmed but they seem to have talked around Dundee who wanted to charge more. 

Sloth was raised. Answer simply that not doing enough to get ahead of others to get in the team. Surprised at Manzinga progress not anticipated to be making in roads as early. 

Some youngsters nearly ready for inclusion but stressed players are ready at different stages. Some will be in and out at different stages. 

Banner incidents at both Hearts and Rangers games discussed. 

Games may be played during Qatar World Cup after Group stages concluded. Winter break likely to be brought forward to coincide with groups. 

One or two bits more to follow in due course... 

 

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Thanks Andy 

A good overview and grateful for it. Particularly comments around Turnbull signing contract. Not saying he will but it had gone a little quite on this and if he does it will ensure we can be patient for his anticipated return to form. 

Also saw elsewhere the fact we got £300k for Hastie + sell on. Probably as much as we could have hoped for. 

Still find it hard to believe we have 2nd or 3rd lowest budget in the league. Which means that one of St Mirren, Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County (most probably) have a bigger budget. It really ought to be recognised the fact we are 4th top on such a budget. 

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7 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Thanks Andy 

A good overview and grateful for it. Particularly comments around Turnbull signing contract. Not saying he will but it had gone a little quite on this and if he does it will ensure we can be patient for his anticipated return to form. 

Also saw elsewhere the fact we got £300k for Hastie + sell on. Probably as much as we could have hoped for. 

Still find it hard to believe we have 2nd or 3rd lowest budget in the league. Which means that one of St Mirren, Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County (most probably) have a bigger budget. It really ought to be recognised the fact we are 4th top on such a budget. 

There are always one or two things that are mentioned on the night that I'm a bit hesitant at putting out and I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to mention the Hastie fee but since it's out there already it was quite interesting to hear how they came to that figure to avoid a tribunal.  Effectively Rangers took the position of a "cross border club" and the sum was reached as if we were dealing with "Carlisle" as was used as the example . I thought it interesting that despite widespread belief that they were playing hardball the deal was concluded early enough that the fee went in the accounts for this year that were concluded on 31st May.

Definitely Ross County have a higher budget. Robinson referenced that in discussing the Cup game last season where he said they were a top flight club in all but name.  He went on to say that a friendly due before the Cup game fell through which he believed had a big impact on our display in that game.  They will ensure they have something in place ahead of Dundee.  He insisted though the trip away was incredibly beneficial and quoted stats about how well we have done after these breaks.  Robinson also mentioned the use of contacts within the squad to take advantage of facilities at very favourable terms in both Tenerife and Northern Ireland.

I'll carry on from here about the other couple of bits of interest...

On the Bois Hearts banner thing the club acknowledge it could have been handled better and didn't appreciate the size of the banner and that this should have been checked out prior to immediately before the game.  Alan Burrows mentioned a meeting on the Sunday with the inference about mending fences.

On Rangers, as has been suggested by another poster on the game thread, the authorities noting the position of the offending banners over the scoreboard and the potential for something to get out of hand stood back.  They will review options for their next visit.  On the missiles incident Alan Burrows gave an excellent response in comparison to a question about considering shutting the Bois sections (even temporarily) where he explained a preference that if an individual is out of line, it will be the individual who is punished and not the whole section 99.9% of whom may well have behaved perfectly well.  Robinson also added that the support from the Bois area is valued and far from shutting the section he wants more people there as he knows how much the players get from that backing.

The club however are fully aware they need to handle the missile incident appropriately and also be very clearly seen to be handling it appropriately.

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7 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Thanks Andy 

A good overview and grateful for it. Particularly comments around Turnbull signing contract. Not saying he will but it had gone a little quite on this and if he does it will ensure we can be patient for his anticipated return to form. 

Also saw elsewhere the fact we got £300k for Hastie + sell on. Probably as much as we could have hoped for. 

Still find it hard to believe we have 2nd or 3rd lowest budget in the league. Which means that one of St Mirren, Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County (most probably) have a bigger budget. It really ought to be recognised the fact we are 4th top on such a budget. 

I think the majority of supporters do appreciate that we are batting well above our weight, quite a few clubs with higher budgets than us have been relegated or are struggling and high praise has to go to the management/coaching/scouting team. Sadly one or two will never appreciate how well the club is run but they are very much in the minority in my view. Good to here some positive new on Turnbull, let’s hope it pans out because that would be a massive piece of business.

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8 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Thanks Andy 

A good overview and grateful for it. Particularly comments around Turnbull signing contract. Not saying he will but it had gone a little quite on this and if he does it will ensure we can be patient for his anticipated return to form. 

Also saw elsewhere the fact we got £300k for Hastie + sell on. Probably as much as we could have hoped for. 

Still find it hard to believe we have 2nd or 3rd lowest budget in the league. Which means that one of St Mirren, Hamilton, Livingston, Ross County (most probably) have a bigger budget. It really ought to be recognised the fact we are 4th top on such a budget. 

Stephen Robinson did state that Ross County has a lot bigger budget to ours, so would suggest Livingston and Hamilton are the two below us in the budget league.

Another  point raised by SR was our training facilities which he said is not fit for purpose, and he said that a good training facilities definitely attracts better players, the chairman did say they are looking into the situation but the usual problem of lack of funds was the problem.

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24 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Certainly doesn’t tell the full story...

I’d question releasing the erm, article 5 minutes prior to the AGM - information has been available for weeks.

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26 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Given that staff costs are 4 million I doubt we are second bottom in player wages. 

So lies then ?

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Not every member of staff plays fitba (Costs were split - Wages 3.5m / Social Sec - 367k; Pensions - 34k).  115 employees per the accounts, 20 players, 25 youth team players.   

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3 minutes ago, steelboy said:

St Mirren's accounts show total wages of 3 million. 

That hardly means it’s a lie to state we are second or third lowest.

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14 hours ago, Andy_P said:

Well Society input amounts to around £180k a year currently.

Thanks for the excellent summary Andy.  I think that quote illustrates just how vital the continuing Well Society support actually is. Without it I don't know where we'd be. Its essential therefore that members continue to contribute even a modest amount each month. Maybe even some doubters will think about signing up. The money is now going to the club as opposed to previous owners.

As for the Hastie fee thats a strange one. We were told previously that virtually all last season's transfer income came from Kipre's move south. If Hastie's fee, if only an initial instalment, was also included it could not have amounted to very much could it?

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23 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

As for the Hastie fee thats a strange one. We were told previously that virtually all last season's transfer income came from Kipre's move south. If Hastie's fee, if only an initial instalment, was also included it could not have amounted to very much could it?

I'd expect any fee for Hastie to be in the 2020 accounts, given that the financial year ends April and Hastie left in May - You then have the time taken for the subsequent negotiations etc.

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I'd also assume that Hastie, as with all deals we seem to do, featured a sell-on in it.

Perhaps a lesser fee than we'd have received in a tribunal, but a greater income overall?

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29 minutes ago, steelboy said:

These accounts are for last season. Hastie's fee will be next year. 

 

No - it is in there as deal with Rangers was agreed as at 31/5/19.  Shown as compensation payment as opposed to transfer fee.  And edited to add - they confirmed last night it included a sell on.

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52 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Thanks for the excellent summary Andy.  I think that quote illustrates just how vital the continuing Well Society support actually is. Without it I don't know where we'd be. Its essential therefore that members continue to contribute even a modest amount each month. Maybe even some doubters will think about signing up. The money is now going to the club as opposed to previous owners.

The Society need to do more on this front.  With inflation that 180k is worth less each year and I assume most folk who contribute are on fixed amounts with no annual uplift.   

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1 hour ago, steelboy said:

St Mirren's accounts show total wages of 3 million. 

Our last set of accounts had a total wage bill of £3.15m, that was for our AGM in January 2019 

Accounts due out shortly for this year.

Out that £3.15m, it was made up of the following. 74 football related  staff and 20 admin.

Turnover was £5.06m but I expect both our staff costs and turnover to be up a fair bit in the next set of accounts.

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31 minutes ago, steelboy said:

St Mirren had 34 non playing staff. 

It seems strange that we have 70. Possibly hospitality workers?

16 admin; 12 football staff; 30 youth development incl coaches; 9 Ground staff / cleaners; 3 catering is the split in the note to the accounts. 

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I seem to remember we had to significantly increase our coaching staff numbers to qualify for Project Brave.

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It was also mentioned by Alan Burrows that the Chris Cadden situation will be a long process but seem confident of possibly getting some money for him but will need to be sorted out by FIFA in Switzerland. He also mentioned that we are still in dispute with Marvin Johnson’s club before we signed him as they think they are entitled to some of the money from his sell on clause!!

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