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Andy_P

Game 24: Livingston (A) 1st February 2020

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You are a mile out on your financials.

You have voiced valid concerns on options, - too many variables though. Availability, budget restraint, player willingness to come to our club to name a few.

Certainly not the reason we lost yesterday...

Seeing potential for freefall myself,  only time will tell.

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9 hours ago, Yodo said:

Not saying Scott would have made any difference but the timing of the transfer was all wrong for us really the board has made a terrible decision for a club with no debt being forced to sell a talent mid season is not right ? So after a great start it looks like th e second half of the season might just be a let down I hope Mr Robinson has another plan  but won't hold my breathe for that 

Welcome back Yodo, did we lose ?

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10 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Really? The first 20 minutes excepted, I thought that was the worst performance from a Well team for several years. If so thats scary.

It really was worse, I’ve been around four seasons now and I can’t remember it being worse than yesterday, we literally could not string a couple of passes together.

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1 hour ago, Shaka said:

Hull bid £750k apparently, we knocked it back and accepted £1m with a sell on, hardly double. The guy is a Scotland U21 regular, still had 2.5 years of his contract and is 19 and improving the more games he gets, and his scoring record? Isnt that bad considering he isnt a centre forward! He plays wide,is our out ball,  has scored 4 or 5 goals this season and has set a few up too, considering we are hardly a free scoring team Id say thats ok.

My main gripe was that there is no way on earth we would have got less than £1m for him in the Summer! So selling him now is essentially accepting the first half decent bid. We are 3rd in the table, have a good cup draw and a fantastic chance of getting Europe. But that could all be down the shitter now. If the club had actually bothered to sign the striker/s that everyone but Steve Robinson can see we desperately needed, then selling Scott would have been dissappointing, but understandable to an extent. Instead we cash in on a quick buck and bring in a 24/25yo panic loan full back/winger who got dumped by Wycombe Wanderers 3 weeks ago. 

Our "Striking" options left are Long, Manzinga, Seedorf, McIver, Ilic & Hylton. Long cannot play up front on his own, but will work hard nontheless. Hylton looks decent in flashes, Seedorf, as much as I want him to succeed, is utter shite and would struggle in the Highland League! Ilic & Manzinga have the jury well out, and McIver looks handy but very raw. We desperately needed at least 1 central striker, we got Ndjoli who is a winger and is apparently not even good enough to make yesterdays bench, and a last minute panic loan Lw/Lb. THATS why I said the Scott deal was Horseshit!

I have to say I think you’re exaggerating the level to which this seasons success has been due to Scott, I would say his impact has been minimal,  he’s slowly improving but has a long way to go. I can name another half dozen player in the first 11 who have had more of an impact than Scott has. Sitting at a large table of well fans yesterday they were split down the middle on the Scott transfer with one stating he would get nowhere near the first team  and be back up here with his tail between his legs within 18 months, time will tell. We needed a central striker before Scott left and still do so nothing has changed there anyway. Scott is not Ronaldo and I don’t see him been the difference between Europe or not.

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From highlights, published reports and posters comments, Gillespie apart, the whole team seemed to be lack lustre, jaded, and disorganised. I don't think James Scott's departure had anything to do with the performance though. The players obviously had a bad day but off the field decisions no doubt also played a part in our downfall.  As I wrote earlier I'm curious as to why Tait was preferred to Grimshaw unless the latter is not fit. I can understand why Aarons wasn't in the squad but we haven't seen much of NdJoli since he signed. These are only loan signings and so have a limited period to make an impact.  Our problems up fronty are fairly widely known but thats now several times this season that our central midfield has gone completely AWOL.  There could be several reasons for that. To an extent you have to feel sorry for the defence if they have no protection in front of them, which did seem to be the case yesterday. That said they didn't cover themselves in glory at Livi's goal - ATS was completely unmarked at the back post. 

We're discussing this loss with incomplete information but I'm sure the management will have a far better understanding of the root cause of the defeat. Like OTF above I think there's potential for freefall if we're not careful.

 

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11 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

From highlights, published reports and posters comments, Gillespie apart, the whole team seemed to be lack lustre, jaded, and disorganised. I don't think James Scott's departure had anything to do with the performance though. The players obviously had a bad day but off the field decisions no doubt also played a part in our downfall.  As I wrote earlier I'm curious as to why Tait was preferred to Grimshaw unless the latter is not fit. I can understand why Aarons wasn't in the squad but we haven't seen much of NdJoli since he signed. These are only loan signings and so have a limited period to make an impact.  Our problems up fronty are fairly widely known but thats now several times this season that our central midfield has gone completely AWOL.  There could be several reasons for that. To an extent you have to feel sorry for the defence if they have no protection in front of them, which did seem to be the case yesterday. That said they didn't cover themselves in glory at Livi's goal - ATS was completely unmarked at the back post. 

We're discussing this loss with incomplete information but I'm sure the management will have a far better understanding of the root cause of the defeat. Like OTF above I think there's potential for freefall if we're not careful.

 

I’m generally a supporter of Robinson but I’m baffled as to why we keep bringing in very average wide players when it’s obvious we are crying out for a decent central striker, it just seems a complete waste of money. I thought Lyndon Dykes was excellent yesterday and he’s exactly the type of player we need not another lightweight winger. Now ok we know we can’t afford Dykes but I would rather see Main return who could at least hold the ball up and had a physical presence. I would like to think we have more than enough quality in the team to avoid a freefall though, we always tend to bounce back.

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Tempting fate but after a while we have learned how to play on that Accies pitch and as a result have had some pretty good results there of late.

Compare that to Livingston where game after game we persist in sticking to our usual style. Passing the ball back and forth across the back, collecting in midfield and trying to hold off/sidestep men before playing a searching pass.  Contrast that to how Livingston play on their own pitch. They get the ball into the final third as quickly as possible, usually one touch, and only try to play passing football when they are in that area. Even if there was nobody to pass to, I lost count of the number of times they just punted the ball upfield into our full back areas and then pressed us into overplaying and usually giving away possession. Dykes may be an excellent player, but the rest are a bunch of journeymen who play to instructions ...and do it well.

Apart from Gillespie the performance yesterday was shocking and disheartening. I take it the game plan was set out for them so Robinson and Lasley must take their share of the blame. Why are we unable or unwilling to adapt our style to suit that pitch?  Time after time it’s the same story. Even when we get a fortunate result like the start of this season. I don’t buy that we don’t have the players for a more suitable approach. Man for man we have better players than Livingston, but not on yesterday’s showing. Surely professional footballers of supposed good quality are capable of adapting to conditions, if they are instructed to. Interestingly Livingston appear able to play a more passing game when playing away from home on a grass pitch. So they are able to adapt. 

I don’t think James Scott would have made much difference and would have been isolated in the same way as Long, eventually playing deeper and deeper. Sad to see him go though. That said we might not have been treated to the sight of Bevis Mugabi doing his very best impression of a left winger/ centre forward. Credit to him for effort, he certainly gave it his all. And having suffered through both games, YES, yesterday was far worse and more embarrassing than the defeat to Accies. 

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31 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m generally a supporter of Robinson but I’m baffled as to why we keep bringing in very average wide players when it’s obvious we are crying out for a decent central striker, it just seems a complete waste of money. I thought Lyndon Dykes was excellent yesterday and he’s exactly the type of player we need not another lightweight winger. Now ok we know we can’t afford Dykes but I would rather see Main return who could at least hold the ball up and had a physical presence. I would like to think we have more than enough quality in the team to avoid a freefall though, we always tend to bounce back.

I don't agree about Main but yes Dykes is the kind of player we should have signed last summer. Maybe we were in for him but he didn't want to join us or we couldn't meet his demands I don't know. We had months to source a  traditional No 9 but didn't do so for whatever reason.

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To be fair, we're not the only team who struggles to adapt to that pitch. Livingston are 3rd in the "home" league table. 24 of their 34 points have come at home which is a much higher proportion of points in comparison to the league average.

Again, not an excuse for what was on show.

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3 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I don't agree about Main but yes Dykes is the kind of player we should have signed last summer. Maybe we were in for him but he didn't want to join us or we couldn't meet his demands I don't know. We had months to source a  traditional No 9 but didn't do so for whatever reason.

Not saying Main would be my number one option but if it was between another winger from down south or him I would have taken him, we badly need someone that can hold the ball up front, yesterday was painful to watch with no one ever in control of the ball.

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Went to the game yesterday saying to myself at least it's got to be better than the first day of the season. It wasn't. It was twice as bad and far worse than the Accies game. Apart from Gillespie we had nobody who can claim to have played at anything like a reasonable level.

Polworth just can't play on that surface but when I saw he was being substituted by O'Hara  I said to the guy next to me that we were settling for 0-0. What happened next, long ball into the box Livi score and we are left with nobody on the park capable of making an incisive pass to get us back into the game.

Everybody going on about signing a big striker to play up top need to take a reality check. Every team in the country is looking for that player and we don't have the financial clout to compete in that market. Don't get me wrong I would love a big 20 goal a season target man but am realistic enough to know it won't happen any time soon.

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We've managed to find 20 goal a season strikers before on our budget,granted its not always going to be possible,it doesn't look like that's the type of player we've been looking to bring in this season for whatever reason,we've been more focused on these pacy forwards that can play anywhere across the front.the hamilton game should have been the wake up that we badly needed a central striker,not necessarily someone that would score most weeks(though that would be nice)but someone that would allow us to alter the way we play,we have no out ball,nobody to hold it up and no physical presence up front,chucking mugabe up front yesterday was just embarrassing.it isn't quite panic stations but teams will suss that were so one dimensional up front and we could become really predictable for the remainder of the season.

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As others have said, what a horrific performance, with so much wrong it’s hard where to know where to start....

If I was to have a go, I think the biggest problem we have going forward is the lack of a physical presence up front. Lost count of the amount of times Hartley had the ball at his feet yesterday (particularly in the first half) only to look up and see everyone running away from him, desperately needed someone to come and take it to feet, on the chest or in the air. Not saying Scott would have made a huge difference yesterday, however he is a presence and would have fulfilled a bit of that role.

I fear the fact we haven’t signed a 6ft+ centre forward who can hold the ball up and bring other players into the game is going to result in a slide down the table....hope I’m wrong. We had no out ball at all yesterday meaning when we played it forward it just came straight back. Think Long needs to play off a bigger striker, also think he’s getting off very lightly due to the fact a lot of his team mates were also poor yesterday, thought he hid throughout....

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3 hours ago, Shaka said:

My main gripe was that there is no way on earth we would have got less than £1m for him in the Summer! So selling him now is essentially accepting the first half decent bid. We are 3rd in the table, have a good cup draw and a fantastic chance of getting Europe.

That's exactly why we were right to sell.

Next season there might have been much more serious consequences in selling a good first team player.

None of the things you have mentioned have changed, they are all still to play for but if we don't make it we'll probably still have had our best season in ages.

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16 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Agree 100% but we just don't have the players to do this. 

Not the way we used to certainly.

But Hylton and Illic are fairly lightweight given the way the game was likely to go.

O'Hara and Manzinga would have given us more physical threat. 

Not sure whats happening with Ndjoli. Id quite like to see what he has to offer fairly soon.

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1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

That's exactly why we were right to sell.

Next season there might have been much more serious consequences in selling a good first team player.

None of the things you have mentioned have changed, they are all still to play for but if we don't make it we'll probably still have had our best season in ages.

If we finish below fourth now it will be a disastrous end to the season.

 

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5 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

I have to say I think you’re exaggerating the level to which this seasons success has been due to Scott, I would say his impact has been minimal,  he’s slowly improving but has a long way to go. I can name another half dozen player in the first 11 who have had more of an impact than Scott has. Sitting at a large table of well fans yesterday they were split down the middle on the Scott transfer with one stating he would get nowhere near the first team  and be back up here with his tail between his legs within 18 months, time will tell. We needed a central striker before Scott left and still do so nothing has changed there anyway. Scott is not Ronaldo and I don’t see him been the difference between Europe or not.

Nah I wasnt attributing all that to Scott. Merely pointing out that even before he left we were in a great position but desperately needed another striker, now if anything we are WEAKER having sold Scott. Now we have lost our out ball AND never signed a central striker so are praying Long doesnt get injured cause we literally have noone else to cover him. But we have 7 wingers sitting in the stand

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23 minutes ago, steelboy said:

If we finish below fourth now it will be a disastrous end to the season.

 

I season is judged on it’s entirety, I would doubt many on here would have been unhappy with a top six finish. For what’s its worth I believe we will finish forth and that would be an outstanding season given all the top city clubs are in the top flight. The biggest blow to the club would  not be losing any individual player, it would be losing Robinson, that’s my biggest fear with the upcoming case. I’m sure there will be a good number of clubs quickly wanting him as their manager should he leave.

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Just now, Shaka said:

Nah I wasnt attributing all that to Scott. Merely pointing out that even before he left we were in a great position but desperately needed another striker, now if anything we are WEAKER having sold Scott. Now we have lost our out ball AND are praying Long doesnt get injured cause we literallt have noone else to cover him. But we have 7 wingers sitting in the stand

I agree with all of that.

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5 hours ago, Onthefringes said:

You are a mile out on your financials.

You have voiced valid concerns on options, - too many variables though. Availability, budget restraint, player willingness to come to our club to name a few.

Certainly not the reason we lost yesterday...

Seeing potential for freefall myself,  only time will tell.

Bang on with the financials. Burrows said it himself, it is the third biggest fee we have received behind Phil & Faddy. We got £1.2m for Faddy, and around £800k for Cedric so You are looking at £1m for Scott (maybe £1.1m), plus the sell on %

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Crikey what a bunch of panic merchants. 
I was looking at the English championship and happened to note that the best 2 teams (in many people’s eyes) Leeds and West Brom have each only won one of their last 5 games. 
It was a shocker of a performance by all accounts but this was after a very decent home performance v Hibs. Losing Scott will make us weaker imho but not signing a striker more so. Lets hope Ndjoli and more so Rolando can prove their worth. 
Expect the square root of f all from midweek even if we do play well. But for me I am hoping such a shite performance means we will not see same again in the cup v St Mirren. For me a more important game.

More depressing for me was the news Turnbull will not be back till after the split. It would be a huge boost for all if he signed even a 1 year extension. Been rumoured for a while but nothing yet. We now have a few bob more to play with.  Might help - might not. 

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1 hour ago, Shaka said:

Bang on with the financials. Burrows said it himself, it is the third biggest fee we have received behind Phil & Faddy. We got £1.2m for Faddy, and around £800k for Cedric so You are looking at £1m for Scott (maybe £1.1m), plus the sell on %

Nobody’s claiming it wasn’t the third biggest fee?
Yet, you claimed we didn’t accept double the  original offer. You do know their original offer was £200,000 up front? Hence, your financials being a mile out...

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5 hours ago, real dosser said:

Went to the game yesterday saying to myself at least it's got to be better than the first day of the season. It wasn't. It was twice as bad and far worse than the Accies game. Apart from Gillespie we had nobody who can claim to have played at anything like a reasonable level.

Polworth just can't play on that surface but when I saw he was being substituted by O'Hara  I said to the guy next to me that we were settling for 0-0. What happened next, long ball into the box Livi score and we are left with nobody on the park capable of making an incisive pass to get us back into the game.

Everybody going on about signing a big striker to play up top need to take a reality check. Every team in the country is looking for that player and we don't have the financial clout to compete in that market. Don't get me wrong I would love a big 20 goal a season target man but am realistic enough to know it won't happen any time soon.

I would settle for a big physical front man who can actually hold the ball up.

He doesn’t even have to score 20 goals a season. 

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1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

Nobody’s claiming it wasn’t the third biggest fee?
Yet, you claimed we didn’t accept double the  original offer. You do know their original offer was £200,000 up front? Hence, your financials being a mile out...

Oh wow, really? That's absurdly low.

 

It would be like us offering 20k for Shankland. 

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2 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

More depressing for me was the news Turnbull will not be back till after the split. It would be a huge boost for all if he signed even a 1 year extension. Been rumoured for a while but nothing yet. We now have a few bob more to play with.  Might help - might not. 

FFS,  so he is gonna be out for 9 months +  for a "preventative" operation on a potential knee issue that had never stopped him playing before? Just imagine how long he would be out with an actual injury!  

Maybe he is a crock and thats why Burrows was so desperate to sell Scott. Seriously tho, You would like to think he would sign an extension even just to protect the clubs investment after all their work with him. Then again all his agent sees is £££ so its very doubtful

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