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Spiderpig

Season suspended till further notice

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7 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Just to add to the confusion, I heard at one stage Hearts get a Championship vote and Dundee Utd get the Premiership vote in these things.

Not sure if that is true (and if it is, if it is true for all these kind of votes).

I read that as well. Hearts hoped to have the recon vote before the Division was ended.. When the SPL was called on Monday, Hearts immediately became a Championship Club for voting purposes. And likewise Dundee Utd are now an SPL vote. Utd were against reconstruction when the round the table vote took place which stopped the working party in its tracks.

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Should Scottish Football not be working with $ly and BBC and look at a way of augmenting the TV deal by offering online season tickets? This would include all clubs and all fans would pay a monthly sub or you could discount like a season ticket for a one off

Every SPFL top flight game would be broadcast with a full catch up service so if you want to watch you game followed by watching some shitey team like the h**s then you are sorted.  Could chuck in some one off stuff like a Lanarkshire Derby or Mould Firm pish, which would bump the revenue up.  This would compensate for the loss of ticket sales/food etc.

Every fans pays the same regardless.  It's then split equally for all to compensate. Mould Firm will moan, but fuck them.

I'm thinking about the older fans here too who might never get back to a game due to circumstances.

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So would those interested buy a normal season ticket where the money goes to their club and additionally buy some kind of tv package where the cash would go to the tv company? Potentially a can of worms. But yes, a positive idea.

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8 hours ago, dennyc said:

According to the media three of the "top teams" are minded to agree a temporary increase to 14. That's why it is back on the table. But any temporary increase means a return to 12 at some stage. So potentially 3 down 1 up next season. Add in the play off situation and it could be 4 relegated. 4 relegated out of 14 (effectively 12 as OF in no danger) seems a bit too risky to me. Anybody other than the OF would be taking a huge gamble voting for such an arrangement.

To offset that, word is Budge will suggest either a gradual return to 12, or a review after two years to assess how the new 14 team SPL is working. I don't see why any team would vote for any temporary increase without a guarantee of how a return to 12 is to be achieved. Far too risky to enter into such a vague situation. The OF are adamant any change must be temporary. I suspect Sky will have a similar view.

I actually think that's the fairest and simplest way to sort out this mess - the whole reason reconstruction was put on the table was to mitigate the unfair damage done to a handful of clubs. That's why I've no issue with Anne Budge chairing it.

What's complicated it is some arsehole clubs chucking in that they want permanent reconstruction at a time when there is no appetite. I think we've got a decent product just now, and it would seem broadcasters offering a record breaking investment agree. If they can tolerate a temporary change to 14 for one season which still guarantees their 4 OF games then I think we'd have a pretty exciting season next year. 

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4 teams potentially relegated is crazy. 

A thoughtful reconstruction is one thing. A knee-jerk reaction reconstruction being led by the club wanting to avoid relegation is another.

I'd be more in favour of providing additional financial support to the relegated teams with increased parachute payments. 

Hearts have been one of the worst teams in any division over the past 12 months and the team I have least sympathy for.  

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6 hours ago, CoF said:

the whole reason reconstruction was put on the table was to mitigate the unfair damage done to a handful of clubs. That's why I've no issue with Anne Budge chairing it.

 

Why was it unfair, whatever way you look at it due to the pandemic this season was never going to be completed, the SPFL had no desire for it, neither did most of the clubs. So there has to be unprecedented desicions taken to resolve it, as in all such cases there are winners and losers. 

Hearts were bottom due to the fact they have been utter pish for over a year now,  the club is a basket case, millions wasted on shite managers and players. Would we be having all this angst over reconstruction if Hamilton or St Mirren had finished bottom, I think not.

All the current pish is a desperate attempt by Anne Budge to save Hearts and not throw anymore of her cash down the stank.

Putting her in charge of the reconstruction  forum with all her self interest was an unbelievable decision,  but given the governance Scottish football has at the moment, its no shock to anyone. 

The teams agreed to call the season so they should accept the final placings and the rewards or penalties those placings bring. Scottish football is already a laughing stock without this current pish going , time to tell Hearts and Budge to deal with it and jog on.

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1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

Why was it unfair, whatever way you look at it due to the pandemic this season was never going to be completed, the SPFL had no desire for it, neither did most of the clubs. So there has to be unprecedented desicions taken to resolve it, as in all such cases there are winners and losers. 

Hearts were bottom due to the fact they have been utter pish for over a year now,  the club is a basket case, millions wasted on shite managers and players. Would we be having all this angst over reconstruction if Hamilton or St Mirren had finished bottom, I think not.

All the current pish is a desperate attempt by Anne Budge to save Hearts and not throw anymore of her cash down the stank.

Putting her in charge of the reconstruction  forum with all her self interest was an unbelievable decision,  but given the governance Scottish football has at the moment, its no shock to anyone. 

The teams agreed to call the season so they should accept the final placings and the rewards or penalties those placings bring. Scottish football is already a laughing stock without this current pish going , time to tell Hearts and Budge to deal with it and jog on.

I agree with everything you've said about Hearts, but it's not about them. 

It's unfair because Partick, Farkirk, Stranraer, Brora and Kelty and to a lesser extent Edinburgh City and Inverness have all been impacted disproportionately more than the other 36 league clubs. Reconstruction would be the least unfair way to deal with it and reduce the number clubs who are losing out. 

7 hours ago, weeyin said:

4 teams potentially relegated is crazy. 

A thoughtful reconstruction is one thing. A knee-jerk reaction reconstruction being led by the club wanting to avoid relegation is another.

I'd be more in favour of providing additional financial support to the relegated teams with increased parachute payments. 

Hearts have been one of the worst teams in any division over the past 12 months and the team I have least sympathy for.  

I've got zero sympathy for Hearts - they are a shambles of a club but it's not about Hearts. 

I'd more in favour of some kind of parachute payment, however you've still got the issue of promotions for a few clubs. We used to relegate 20% of teams from a league of 10. We 'relegated' 8 in 1974's reconstruction. I've not fussed about the specifics but I do think reconstruction for one season to reduce the unfairness would be a reasonable thing to do. 

It'll never happen though. The rest of the league are quite happy to have the damage sit entirely with a small handful of clubs. 

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26 minutes ago, CoF said:

I've got zero sympathy for Hearts - they are a shambles of a club but it's not about Hearts. 
 

It might not be to you, or us, but it is to Hearts and to a lesser extent the SPFL.  As Spiderpig rightly says, if it was St Mirren or Accies that were involved it wouldn't be much of an issue. Had the season run its normal course then a number of clubs would have been relegated anyway, most likely but not 100% certainly, as things stood Hearts, Partick and Stranraer. 

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1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

It might not be to you, or us, but it is to Hearts and to a lesser extent the SPFL.  As Spiderpig rightly says, if it was St Mirren or Accies that were involved it wouldn't be much of an issue. Had the season run its normal course then a number of clubs would have been relegated anyway, most likely but not 100% certainly, as things stood Hearts, Partick and Stranraer. 

Of course, Hearts being in this position is probably putting it at the forefront of more folks minds. Regardless, I think there should be some recompense for all teams being denied the chance to get out of relegation and other teams being denied the chance to get promoted.

In ideal world, if we the clubs were a cohesive unit and trusted the board then some compensation scheme would be worked out based on points gaps i.e. your likelihood of being promoted or relegated. Possibly too convoluted and you'd never get an agreement on the formula.

The money will never be split because everyone wants their full slice of the pie even at the expense of others, so I think some form of temporary reconstruction is the next best thing to mitigate unfairness. 

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1 hour ago, CoF said:

 

It's unfair because Partick, Farkirk, Stranraer, Brora and Kelty and to a lesser extent Edinburgh City and Inverness have all been impacted disproportionately more than the other 36 league clubs.

The same point i made earlier still stands re the other relegated clubs and those missing out on playoff places .  Tough decisions had to be made with winners and losers no matter what was decided, so all clubs need to stand by the outcome. 

 

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Ok the league has been called,If we are proposing playing the Scottish cup.......could the relegation play offs not be played ?????

Personally if we were in Hearts position I would be raging 

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33 minutes ago, Pettywulliegrew-2 said:

Ok the league has been called,If we are proposing playing the Scottish cup.......could the relegation play offs not be played ?????

Personally if we were in Hearts position I would be raging 

If you wanted the relegation playoffs then logically the last 8 league matches would  need to have been played 1st to determine who was involved, both go hand in hand and for the reasons we know about it was never going to happen.  

The scottish Cup is different,  3 games left that have no bearing on the new season so can be played  anytime.

There was no precedent for what happened this year, no rules or guidance so any desicions were always going to be controversial, but now they have been made the clubs need to accept them and move on to prepare for the restart next season, whenever that may be.

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37 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

If you wanted the relegation playoffs then logically the last 8 league matches would  need to have been played 1st to determine who was involved, both go hand in hand and for the reasons we know about it was never going to happen.  

The scottish Cup is different,  3 games left that have no bearing on the new season so can be played  anytime.

There was no precedent for what happened this year, no rules or guidance so any desicions were always going to be controversial, but now they have been made the clubs need to accept them and move on to prepare for the restart next season, whenever that may be.

Called as average points gained,play them as one off cup ties 4 v 3 ,winner v 2Nd ,winner v premier team = 3 games

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3 hours ago, CoF said:

I'd more in favour of some kind of parachute payment, however you've still got the issue of promotions for a few clubs. We used to relegate 20% of teams from a league of 10. We 'relegated' 8 in 1974's reconstruction. I've not fussed about the specifics but I do think reconstruction for one season to reduce the unfairness would be a reasonable thing to do.

And the reason we scrapped the 2 from 10 model is that it ended up producing a shitfest of park-the-bus and agricultural tactics from teams petrified of relegation that were abysmal to watch.

Calling the league is unfair and reconstruction is unfair (as teams that most likely would have been relegated might escape the following season). I understand the reasons behind both, but if Hearts do avoid relegation then spend their way out of relegation next season too, the teams that are relegated have equally valid complaints about being screwed over.

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Motherwell fans are on a rollercoaster, that is because all things are cyclical, we will have as many 11th place finishes as we have for 3rd.  It is very likely that in the time frame that they will look to reverse any increase to the league we will be scuttling about down there.  For that very selfish reason I do not support any temporary restructure.

If someone can show me a workable larger league then I may support a permanent change but 14 doesn’t work and 16 doesn’t fit other people’s criteria.

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1 hour ago, ropy said:

Motherwell fans are on a rollercoaster, that is because all things are cyclical, we will have as many 11th place finishes as we have for 3rd.  It is very likely that in the time frame that they will look to reverse any increase to the league we will be scuttling about down there.  For that very selfish reason I do not support any temporary restructure.

If someone can show me a workable larger league then I may support a permanent change but 14 doesn’t work and 16 doesn’t fit other people’s criteria.

Agree temporary restructure would have been to appease teams/ paper over the massive cracks in our league

When was the last time we had an exciting finish to the league that has went to the wire without involvement of both the ugly sisters.....1993/4 ?

When was last time  the league was in doubt after February 
When h**s were rebranding ,the gaps between 1st n2nd was up to 30 points and 40 points to 3rd place, though recently Dons then h**s came 9 points behind.......oh the drama

Scottish football is geared round the ugly sisters and I don’t think it will change in my life time, spl/sfa/tv/press pander to them,and their supporters are only interested in beating each other 

Yet we plod on nothing changing.........no ideas ....clueless.......and it reflects on our national team


The sooner we get away from playing each other 4 times per season the better, and making the league more competitive ,not favouring the ugly sisters with their mega money compared to the diddies  who make up their league

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Lets throw the two teams out of the league, and they can play each other every week. Do that and we would then have a league where any one of eight teams would have a realistic chance of winning the league, which would make it far more exciting. Then if the two ugly sisters want back in, they come back in on our terms, not theirs. Instead of the way it is just now. That would be the reorganisation I would like to see. They wield far too much power over everything.

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I think many fans would like to see a bigger League with teams only meeting twice. 16 or 18 teams maybe. But reality is that for financial reasons it is never going to happen. Our major source of income is TV monies and the only product Sky etc are interested in is the OF clashes. Clubs need cash. TV provides that cash. Vital cash as Mr Doncaster seems incapable of securing new sponsors willing to pay substantial amounts. So we must have at least four Celtic v Rangers meetings a season.

When it was first introduced I was against a Division of 12 splitting after 3 rounds. But it does work from a financial point of view and it is better than a 10 team league. Most teams have something to play for all season long and the play offs work well, bringing much needed excitement across all Divisions up to season end. Whether we have had good or bad seasons of late, most matches have meant something. That was not always the case when we had 18 teams in the Division. Out of the Cup and little to play for beyond January a horrible memory. 

I could Just about live with a 14 team Division if it was permanent, splitting Top 6 Bottom 8 after two rounds. But that would mean more than half the teams losing out on a home game against Rangers or Celtic.  Splitting after 3 rounds as at present would result in too many games. So I doubt whether clubs would support either option. 
Any temporary increase is just contrived to appease a team who have been dire all season (and before that) and who are exactly where they deserve to be on merit. On merit, just like the Division winners and Motherwell in third.
And a temporary increase greatly increases the danger of relegation for all but the OF when a return to 12 teams takes place. I don’t want to see my Club increasing our chances of relegation ,and potentially reducing income ,to rescue a Club who find themselves in a situation to which they have greatly contributed. Four league wins all season speaks for itself. 
I have slightly more sympathy for Partick Thistle, having a game in hand. They have  been disadvantaged much more than Hearts. But on a points per game average they are another team facing relegation on merit. 

 

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20 minutes ago, yosemite sam said:

Lets throw the two teams out of the league, and they can play each other every week. Do that and we would then have a league where any one of eight teams would have a realistic chance of winning the league, which would make it far more exciting. Then if the two ugly sisters want back in, they come back in on our terms, not theirs. Instead of the way it is just now. That would be the reorganisation I would like to see. They wield far too much power over everything.

Great idea , unfortunately the majority of clubs (ours included ) cant see the wood for the trees or rather pound signs . However as you state it would be a more competitive league so I and many others think the crowds would naturally increase and there would also be cost savings by not having to entertain these clowns at least five times a season . If sky or other broadcasters dont want to cover the league , stuff them and stick the blue and green pound where the sun dont shine. Wishful thinking.

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8 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Any temporary increase is just contrived to appease a team who have been dire all season (and before that) and who are exactly where they deserve to be on merit. On merit, just like the Division winners and Motherwell in third.


 

Where does your merit argument leave Farkirk, Brora, Kelty, Edinburgh City and Inverness?

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With more of a case than Hearts. But if it was only those teams you mention we would not be even considering restructuring. And whether anybody likes it or not, a democratic vote of all senior League Clubs decided the outcome. It was a shambles but it was a vote. 

Some teams have lost out. But as soon as it was decided it was not practical to complete all games that was going to happen. Null and void might have avoided that , but then just as many teams would have been disadvantaged by that option. Financially and by way of reward for performance to date. There is no perfect solution.  I wish there was. Might have been easier football wise if CoVid had struck a couple of games in. 

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10 hours ago, Pettywulliegrew-2 said:

Ok the league has been called,If we are proposing playing the Scottish cup.......could the relegation play offs not be played ?????

Personally if we were in Hearts position I would be raging 

Jambolover.

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I noticed that everything had gone quiet on the reconstruction front but then found out that Ann Budge has been given an extension to Monday to submit her plans. This will give her additional time to arm twist consult other clubs. More dithering and delay!

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On 5/21/2020 at 2:07 PM, Pettywulliegrew-2 said:

Called as average points gained,play them as one off cup ties 4 v 3 ,winner v 2Nd ,winner v premier team = 3 games

But they’re not cup ties. The outcome of the games would determine what division teams would be competing in which would affect budgets and potential signings. The games would need to take place well in advance of the new season starting to allow the winners and losers to plan and build squads accordingly. Surely you can see that’s not possible?

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I must confess that I've paid very little attention to the voting, reconstruction and logistical discussions. Mainly because I'm not that bothered. Easy for me to say as a Motherwell fan, given we were in no danger of relegation. Now it's apparently been decided (assuming Hearts' late attempt at reconstruction fails), here's my thoughts. 

However they decided to do it, someone was going to lose out. As hilarious as it would have been to see Dundee United to miss out again, null and void would have been possibly more of a legal minefield. Could clubs ask players for win bonuses back? Could fans/TV companies ask for all their money back if these games 'didn't happen'? Sounds ridiculous but anything is possible with Scottish football.

Reconstruction wouldn't be on the table if not for the Hearts situation. To suggest major changes when there's already uncertainty is insane. 

Points per game after 30 games is not an outrageous idea. If only 8 games had been played, it would have been ridiculous. But teams generally find their level by 30 games. Bear in mind, Hearts have played Hamilton three times this season and failed to beat them. They have been garbage. 

Having said all that, whatever they decided wouldn't have bothered me too much. I love football, and my only concern is that there is a Motherwell team to go back to when some form of normality returns. What I would say is that celebrating finishing third or nine in a row when people are dying may get criticised but could at a stretch be seen as trying to find joy at a grim time. But to be bleating about how unfair it is that another team should have an asterisk at their title or how unfair it is that your team got relegated when people are dying, is a really bad look...

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