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Spiderpig

Season suspended till further notice

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I think it's fair to say that missing million is less missing to some than to others :rolleyes:

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23 hours ago, dennyc said:

And as expected there is no indication of how the return to 12 Clubs is to be achieved. That is just a risk not worth taking. Budge is asking folk to go into a room without knowing how they are going to get out of it. 
But I do fear there is a chance it will go through though. Doncaster is behind it and pushing hard. So does that mean all those SPL clubs with people on the SPFL Board will feel obliged to vote yes? That’s a fair chunk of the 12 clubs. And the BBC are doing their bit saying it only needs backing from 9 SPL clubs. Even though they also say it will result in cash pay out changes. By their own rules that requires 11 “yes” votes. 
I think Budge is aware of that cash “hurdle” as she says the lack of a parachute payment for this season will offset that reduction across the other clubs.  But what about after year 1 of 2? Will the club(s) relegated then not receive parachute payments?

And as for “ This is not about saving Hearts”. Hilarious. 

 

 

22 hours ago, dennyc said:

Ha ha. BBC now changed their report on Budge proposal. Now saying it needs an 11-1 minimum to succeed at SPL level. Pity they don’t research before publishing. Even the Hearts fan site picked up on vote requirements. 

The original BBC report also claimed it would replace the current 12 - 12 - 12- 10 league set up, (they have now changed it) so if they can't get that right, what chance for accuracy in the rest of it.

 

There was an interesting article on the BBC a week or so ago;   

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52691308 

 

It rather suggests that Hearts were already as good as down.  

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5 hours ago, steelboy said:

Accies accounts are out and the auditors have stated their bookkeeping is unreliable. Not really a shock following the missing million, the CBD business, the Whitehill Luxury Anti Ageing Clinic and the other dodgy shit that goes around about them. 

Off topic but interesting nonetheless. What is your source?

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10 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

What is your source?

PriceOfFootball twitter account

@KieranMaguire

 

 

 

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So, there we go. As expected, if the clubs don't accept reconstruction, Hearts are going to take it to the courts.  Which could have a knock-on effect for delaying the start of the season.

Hearts chief Ann Budge has warned that she will have no option but to follow through on her threat of legal action if the Tynecastle club is left languishing in the Championship when the new season finally kicks off.

That would throw Scottish football into even greater turmoil and could derail the resumption of competitive action, but the retired businesswoman insists she would make a stand if something is not done to mitigate a decision she maintains is “unfair” and “wrong”.

Criticised for the reconstruction paper she submitted to clubs earlier this week, she says the creation of a 14-team redresses the decision by the SPFL clubs in April to relegate Hearts, Partick Thistle and Stranraer.

The proposition is to be discussed by the current four divisions next week, with Budge desperate for a decision that would allow everyone to move on.

“It could drift and drift and drift and I for one don’t want that anymore than anyone else,” said Budge. “As if there weren’t enough uncertainties about.

“I know some people will say ‘just give up then’ but that takes us full circle to me saying ‘I’m not giving up because this is wrong’.”

The initial grievance of being relegated with eight matches of the league campaign remaining has been compounded by the consequences of that decision, most pertinently the possibility that they may have to sit out half of next season as several of the second tier sides have said they are unable and unwilling to complete a season which will start behind closed doors.

“If it unfortunately becomes clear that we will be starting the season in the Championship I don’t have any choice but to go ahead with a legal battle,” reiterated Budge.

“Do I want to do that? Absolutely not. We could have done it straight away but I didn’t do it because it wasn’t the right thing to do without exploring other options.

“Other clubs have admitted that we should be given financial compensation but who benefits out of that? If it is the clubs compensating us then they are basically admitting that something wasn’t fair.

“We have already got two QCs who have looked over that original decision and that is just one angle. If we are in the Championship and the Championship isn’t playing then it is effectively a restriction of trade.”

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We should give them a £300,000 parachute payment

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Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of how things have been done, does Ann Budge not realise that going to court over a football relegation when thousands of people in the country have died is a really, really bad look..?

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Withdraw all league payments until the threat of legal action is removed and remind them it is a members organisation, and their membership will be withdrawn, if external legal action is taken.

 

 

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I can't understand how it can affect the start of the league season. It has officially closed and they have been officially relegated after an agreement by ALL clubs. So I cannot see how they have any case for going to court...and claim what? You can't claim a restriction of trade because of a Government restriction for the health and safety of players and fans. Good luck with that though

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33 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of how things have been done, does Ann Budge not realise that going to court over a football relegation when thousands of people in the country have died is a really, really bad look..?

The question in her mind is were Hearts wrongfully demoted because the season was finished early ....if she thinks they could have saved themselves then she needs to fight for her club.....

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55 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of how things have been done, does Ann Budge not realise that going to court over a football relegation when thousands of people in the country have died is a really, really bad look..?

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of taking it to court, I wouldn't say "how can you do X when people have died" is a great counter-argument either. People trying to keep their businesses afloat and protect their employees' livelihoods is a big part of this whole mess, and there have already been plenty of court cases about who needs to pay who what in these strange times.

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We can argue this topic all night, but the simple facts of the matter is Hearts were the worst team in the league, they had won only 4 games all season, and yet within the next 8 games they were going to be world beaters and survive, when only one team, who were in their position at this stage, were able to get into the playoffs. It might not be perfect, but Budge's only argument for a larger league is about saving Hearts from relegation, and nothing else. Not for the better of Scottish football. Sure, I would have hated it to be Motherwell, and then we would have arguing for league construction to save ourselves, but with the ugly sisters really having the casting vote for any kind of reconstruction, it won't happen. They have only their own self interest at heart as well. So for me nothing changes.

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If they do go ahead with a court case, their biggest obstacle is going to be the fact that they voluntarily signed up to play in the SPFL and abide by the SPFL rules. Sporting competitions tend to be viewed as special cases where the rules of the league take priority. You might as well say that a player getting dropped from the first team is "restriction of trade" because he isn't getting to play (which is his job), gets less salary and win bonuses, and has a contract that restricts him from playing elsewhere.

 

Of course, I'm not a lawyer so could be well off the mark, but it's unusual for sporting lawsuits to go against the association in question. Bosman was the most famous exception, but that really was a weird situation where a club could prevent you moving to another club *after* your contract had expired (unless the new club paid the requested transfer fee). That really was restriction of trade. Typically these things end up as a "you signed up knowing the rules - you can't complain you don't like the rules".

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11 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

The question in her mind is were Hearts wrongfully demoted because the season was finished early ....if she thinks they could have saved themselves then she needs to fight for her club.....

 

11 hours ago, numpty said:

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of taking it to court, I wouldn't say "how can you do X when people have died" is a great counter-argument either. People trying to keep their businesses afloat and protect their employees' livelihoods is a big part of this whole mess, and there have already been plenty of court cases about who needs to pay who what in these strange times.

You'll note that I didn't specifically say that she was wrong to do it, just that from a PR point of view complaining 'it's not fair' about a team getting relegated (Hearts will be fine financially), isn't going to win many hearts (pardon the pun) and minds in the current climate. People are worried about their jobs and a team that wasted ridiculous sums of money on Glenn Whelan are moaning about the costs of relegation. 

Again not necessarily saying that Hearts shouldn't pursue it, but if the SPFL are on one side saying that they made a difficult decision in unprecedented times that they felt was for the benefit of the game as a whole and Hearts are on the other saying 'this isn't fair because we got relegated', they may win the case but they'll look bad in doing so...

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Maybe the clubs could expel Hearts for bringing the league into disrepute.

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8 hours ago, weeyin said:

If they do go ahead with a court case, their biggest obstacle is going to be the fact that they voluntarily signed up to play in the SPFL and abide by the SPFL rules. Sporting competitions tend to be viewed as special cases where the rules of the league take priority. You might as well say that a player getting dropped from the first team is "restriction of trade" because he isn't getting to play (which is his job), gets less salary and win bonuses, and has a contract that restricts him from playing elsewhere.

 

Of course, I'm not a lawyer so could be well off the mark, but it's unusual for sporting lawsuits to go against the association in question. Bosman was the most famous exception, but that really was a weird situation where a club could prevent you moving to another club *after* your contract had expired (unless the new club paid the requested transfer fee). That really was restriction of trade. Typically these things end up as a "you signed up knowing the rules - you can't complain you don't like the rules".

And having agreed to abide by the rules when joining the SPFL, Hearts were effectively relegated after a democratic (?) vote of all members which was held within the rules of the Association. I think that under special circumstances the Board already had the power to call all Divisions so they could argue the case that for fairness purposes they even went the extra mile by holding that vote. And if the claim is restriction of trade, it is not the SPFL denying them games. It is the clubs within their new Division who cannot/are refusing to play until fans may attend matches. The SPFL have provided Hearts with a Division in which to play and would be delighted if all teams took part from the start.  So should Hearts not take those teams to court rather than the Association? And that is not taking into account the real reason for the current mess is CoVid 19, regarded as an Act of God, which I would think must come into any legal decision.  

Hearts are scrambling about trying to find any way to remain in the PL, possibly as most clubs would do in these circumstances. But they are getting desperate now as the start date draws nearer. I still think reconstruction is their only way out and I hear that within the SPL there are now only 3 Clubs in the “No” camp following lobbying from Anne Budge and elsewhere. Hopefully those three stand firm as any temporary increase creates so much more risk of eventual relegation to so many Clubs. Begs the question though as to why Clubs that happily voted to close down the League now wish to avoid some of the outcomes they knowingly voted for. 

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20 hours ago, yosemite sam said:

We can argue this topic all night, but the simple facts of the matter is Hearts were the worst team in the league, they had won only 4 games all season, and yet within the next 8 games they were going to be world beaters and survive, when only one team, who were in their position at this stage, were able to get into the playoffs. It might not be perfect, but Budge's only argument for a larger league is about saving Hearts from relegation, and nothing else. Not for the better of Scottish football. Sure, I would have hated it to be Motherwell, and then we would have arguing for league construction to save ourselves, but with the ugly sisters really having the casting vote for any kind of reconstruction, it won't happen. They have only their own self interest at heart as well. So for me nothing changes.

We have been saved twice in last 35 years due to league reconstruction/ stadium criteria...the year we won the play off v Rangers , we were at this stage one of the worst teams in the league but we got the chance to claw it back , so you be assured Motherwell would’ve fought it , had they been in Heart’s  shoes.

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23 hours ago, MelvinBragg said:

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of how things have been done, does Ann Budge not realise that going to court over a football relegation when thousands of people in the country have died is a really, really bad look..?

Nonsense 

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23 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

They're quite right

The SPFL member clubs took a vote to call the season, Hearts had their say but they need to abide by the decision and face up to the relegation that they deserve and was always coming to them. 

Would we have all this shite going on if it had been Accies or St Mirren or Ross County at the bottom I think not.

Doncaster and the SPFL Board need to grow a set and tell Budge to shut up and jog on.

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46 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

So EPL going to finish the season? hearts will be asking why can’t SPFL? 

Because the SPFL clubs voted and decided not to its not a difficult concept, the vast majority of the clubs have no issue with it, so  Hearts need to deal with it and get ready for a shot at the championship title come 1st August.

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9 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Because the SPFL clubs voted and decided not to its not a difficult concept, the vast majority of the clubs have no issue with it, so  Hearts need to deal with it and get ready for a shot at the championship title come 1st August.

Also, the cost of playing behind closed doors is something the multi-billion pound EPL can absorb and something the SPFL clubs cannot. Just look at the extreme lengths they had to go to in Germany to get their games played. Segregated training, segregated transport to games, complex cleaning and sanitsation protocols for stadia - they were even coming onto the pitch from different entrances in the game I watched today.

I was all in favour of finishing the league if possible - probably by playing it out at the start of next season (with the additional complications that entails). The clubs are much more informed about the financial ramifications than I am, however, and collectively decided that calling the season was their best possible option. It's difficult to argue against that.

 

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5 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

We have been saved twice in last 35 years due to league reconstruction/ stadium criteria...the year we won the play off v Rangers , we were at this stage one of the worst teams in the league but we got the chance to claw it back , so you be assured Motherwell would’ve fought it , had they been in Heart’s  shoes.

We were one of the worst yes, but not the worst - Hearts were.  We might well have fought our corner, but going by events in the past, we would not have taken court action. If Hearts go down that route they might be putting the future of Scottish football at risk but hey thats not their problem.  If they do so it'll be a PR disaster for them as MelvinBragg wrote.

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1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

Because the SPFL clubs voted and decided not to its not a difficult concept, the vast majority of the clubs have no issue with it, so  Hearts need to deal with it and get ready for a shot at the championship title come 1st August.

Apparently Hearts having some difficulty with it though. 

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