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Andy_P

Season 2020’21: Kilmarnock (A) - Postponed

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I can't see a fair way to resolve this kind of situation. The nature of the virus means that any criteria or parameters the authorities might set could be rendered out of date within a couple of days. Clubs are trying hard, but health (and politics) issues  can over - ride their efforts. Having told St.Mirren to find a goalie somewhere and get on with it, then allowing Killie to postpone doesn't give the soundest basis for setting a consistent and fair framework. The OF iin Europe could, in unpredictable ways, complicate things even further. Another season which is going to end in recrimination, I fear. Somebody is going to feel cheated.

This is the ultimate 'no - win' for decision - makers at every level.  The best - laid plans and all that............

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18 minutes ago, dazlhigh said:

Having told St.Mirren to find a goalie somewhere and get on with it, then allowing Killie to postpone doesn't give the soundest basis for setting a consistent and fair framework.

It looks like different clinical advice has guided both decisions. Games have been postponed in the past where squads have come down with a sickness bug, so the Kilmarnock situation isn't exactly unprecedented.  The clinical advice from NHS Ayrshire and Arran was that Killie's whole squad needed to go into isolation. The clinical advice from NHS Glasgow and Clyde was that only the three St Mirren goalies needed to isolate. It's going to be hard for the SPFL to be consistent when rules are constantly changing and clubs are spread across half a dozen health boards. 

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8 minutes ago, CoF said:

It looks like different clinical advice has guided both decisions. Games have been postponed in the past where squads have come down with a sickness bug, so the Kilmarnock situation isn't exactly unprecedented.  The clinical advice from NHS Ayrshire and Arran was that Killie's whole squad needed to go into isolation. The clinical advice from NHS Glasgow and Clyde was that only the three St Mirren goalies needed to isolate. It's going to be hard for the SPFL to be consistent when rules are constantly changing and clubs are spread across half a dozen health boards. 

Yes, the problem here is inconsistency between different Health Boards and there's plenty evidence of this at the moment. Kilmarnock did what they had to do. The SPFL investigation will try to determine if Kilmarnock followed guidance/rules. As things stand, there is no proof that they haven't. However if the investigation finds that they have not followed guidance thats a different matter. By way of comparison does anyone know what the punishment would be for fielding an ineligible player in a league game? Am I right in thinking that the punishment for failing to provide the opposition with your team line within the specified time before kick off is to award the opposition a 3-0 victory (as it is in the women's game).

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19 minutes ago, CoF said:

It looks like different clinical advice has guided both decisions. Games have been postponed in the past where squads have come down with a sickness bug, so the Kilmarnock situation isn't exactly unprecedented.  The clinical advice from NHS Ayrshire and Arran was that Killie's whole squad needed to go into isolation. The clinical advice from NHS Glasgow and Clyde was that only the three St Mirren goalies needed to isolate. It's going to be hard for the SPFL to be consistent when rules are constantly changing and clubs are spread across half a dozen health boards. 

The Clinical advice given is not something the SPFL enquiry needs to worry  about, all they need to focus on is finding out how the players got infected in the 1st place, and did they break any current rules in doing so.

There are rumours of alleged poker nights, etc so if this is the case and they broke Current rules resulting in their club being unable to fulfill the fixture,  then its a no brainer Killie should forfeit the game.

But given the history of the SPFL, they will discuss it for a while then do feck all.

 

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Absolutely no way will/should we be awarded 3 points.

 

If the Aberdeen players can go out on the lash and their game isn't forfeited, Kilmarnock have nothing to worry about.

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Not sure about nowadays,  but there used to be a guideline that if any Club was stuck down with a bug affecting xxx number of players, or if they had above a specific number of players on International duty, a game could be called off if requested. CoVid  should be treated just the same. That way you might just get some consistency and the St Mirrens of this world would not get shafted by random. illogical decisions. To pass the buck to local Health Boards is just abdication by our ruling body. Everybody knew teams were likely to be affected so why were no hard and fast rules put in place before the season kicked off?  Example, Three first team squad members struck down or isolating and you play. Above those numbers, game off. Subject to independent medical confirmation. Might be a few more games cancelled than in normal times but we would cope with a little bit of effort.

And no way should Kilmarnock be forfeiting any games, no matter how those players caught the infection. That action would affect more than the teams directly involved. If the Club or the players got it wrong, impose fines as with Aberdeen and Celtic.

I can just see it now. Last game of the season and we need to beat Accies to avoid relegation or play off. Bug strikes and we have to forfeit a game for the first time all season and therefore are relegated. Cue meltdown.

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41 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

There are rumours of alleged poker nights, etc so if this is the case and they broke Current rules resulting in their club being unable to fulfill the fixture,  then its a no brainer Killie should forfeit the game.

That would turn the league into a complete farce. Take a look at the bottom of the table just now:

Motherwell - 8

St Johnstone - 7

Hamilton - 7

St Mirren - 7

 

By your logic it should look like this:

Motherwell 11 (we'd actually leapfrog Dundee United and Ross County into 7th)

Hamilton - 10

St Mirren - 10

St Johnstone - 7

 

The team who is being punished the most there is St Johnstone and they've had nothing to do with any of the postponed games. Kilmarnock barely lose out. They haven't lost 3 points - all they've lost is the opportunity to gain 3 points, which they may or may not have taken. 

No individual team should gain an advantage from another teams stupidity and no individual team should be adversely affected. The only fair way to punish teams who break the rules would be a points deduction.

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Just now, CoF said:

No individual team should gain an advantage from another teams stupidity and no individual team should be adversely affected. The only fair way to punish teams who break the rules would be a points deduction.

I get your logic and agree with it. However what would happen to that team's opponents on the day? They would be disadvantaged by denying them the chance to pick up 3 points or even 1. In the event they'd be treated as though they'd lost the game and would be punished in effect. All other teams in the league would have the opportunity to win points. 

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14 minutes ago, dennyc said:

 That way you might just get some consistency and the St Mirrens of this world would not get shafted by random. illogical decisions.

Agree with the rest of your post, but I think I've cracked why that decision was made (if my understanding of the rules is right). It's maybe not as random or illogical as it seems. 

Basically - the decision had nothing to do with coronavirus. There is an expectation in Scotland (and throughout association football) that every effort is made to allow games to go ahead even if a clubs senior keepers are all out, whether it's through injury, international duty or suspension. The SPFL expects clubs to find a solution, as does FIFA, and the EFL and the EPL...... If it's outwith the transfer window you find a free agent. It's also within the rules that you can apply to the league for an emergency 7 day loan (that loan isn't available for outfield players). The signings can be made up to 3 hours before a match.

There's plenty of examples of it happening in England and Scotland. The rules were applied a few years ago when Raith applied for postponement and were told to sign a keeper. They chose to stick Ryan Stevenson in goals instead then complained about the decision not to postpone. 

So, while Jim Goodwin was saying Scotland was the "laughing stock of world football", the SPFL were simply applying long-established rules. 

I'm sure some would argue that finding a keeper with 24 hours notice is unreasonable, but St Mirren managed it so it obviously wasn't that unreasonable. 

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2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I get your logic and agree with it. However what would happen to that team's opponents on the day? They would be disadvantaged by denying them the chance to pick up 3 points or even 1. In the event they'd be treated as though they'd lost the game and would be punished in effect. All other teams in the league would have the opportunity to win points. 

Ah, I'm going on the assumption the game would be played at a later date. A pain in the arse aye, maybe some sort of financial compensation to the affected team would be the route to go down. 

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Just now, CoF said:

Ah, I'm going on the assumption the game would be played at a later date. A pain in the arse aye, maybe some sort of financial compensation to the affected team would be the route to go down. 

Ok but you'd need to deduct more than 3 points, probably 6, from the guilty club as they could win the rearranged game and therefore cancel out a 3 points deduction.

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2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Yes, the problem here is inconsistency between different Health Boards and there's plenty evidence of this at the moment. Kilmarnock did what they had to do. 

Sorry Dave but what evidence of inconsistencies ?

St.Mirren outbreak, was what, one working/training  group (within government  operating protocol) ,  3 players, all from the same working group/bubble , two maybe three households  at most isolated and contained spread.

Kilmarnock outbreak, details still vague, 6 positive cases ,  it appears it’s to have spread further into the squad from initial 3 , so now into different groups/ bubbles , at least double the households and still not confident it’s contained , squad advised to isolate 

Aberdeen Eight , squad riddled with it, squad advised to isolate 


seems fairy consistent risk based approach in the advice , 

Too many frustrated punters crying out for something or someone to blame,

as COF pointed out , rules and regulations as they stand are being applied, and consistently...

it confuses me that , when it comes to football people try and twist any snippet of a potential grievance to escalate to some sort of shitstorm

The league is the clubs the association again are the clubs, the clubs realise , a pandemic is all around us and individuals are going to get infected 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Ok but you'd need to deduct more than 3 points, probably 6, from the guilty club as they could win the rearranged game and therefore cancel out a 3 points deduction.

They'd still be 3 points worse off than before though. 

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11 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Hold the bus it seems sanctions including forfeiting the game are a possibility according  to SPFL.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54402157

 

Quote

As it stands, the SPFL board does not have that power

 

I’d be chipping into the Kilmarnock legal fund , if he tries to apply new punishment to them that wasn’t applied to Celtic or Aberdeen 

 

Besides he’s been on a self important rant today, saying  nothing to gain public support to move forward 

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1 minute ago, Yorkyred said:

Points won’t be awarded.

Not so sure, as we saw from the Aberdeen and Celtic incidents the Scottish Gov has football on a yellow card, so if the Killie players did break the rules, then the SPFL may decide to take strong action, in the hope that it prevents the Gov getting  involved again, it will be interesting  to see how it pans out.

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There’s no way we should be awarded the points 

BUT if it’s established that Killie have not followed all the protocols that are in place they should be deducted points and fined 

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Kid comes home from school, infects his Dad who just happens to be a footballer. Dad infects team. Team forfeit game. Team get relegated by one point. 

And that's acceptable/ Really?

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I listened to Doncaster on Sportsound and he was essentially saying that Killie could forfeit the Betfred Cup Games v Falkirk and Dunfermline, but that they do not have the powers to do so for a league game.  It would be somewhat bizarre if Falkirk and Dunfermline were awarded a 3-0 win but not Motherwell FC for exactly the same set of circumstances. Inability to field a team. 

The interesting point was that St Mirren could prove the rest of their squad was OK and unlikely to have breached strict bubbles / guidelines.  Whereas Kilmarnock were unable to do this !  So one wonders what any investigation will uncover...….

As much as I would like the 3 points without playing this would be a minefield and the least likely option.  The game will be re-scheduled and if it is found that Killie players have breached protocols then there is a precedence to punish the players and even fine the club. IMHO you cannot find Kilmarnock FC guilty on the basis of stupidity of players much like the Aberdeen 8. Ban the guilty players for X games and make sure our game is re-scheduled during that timeframe.  Assuming there has been any wrongdoing from Killie players.  Innocent until proven guilty etc.

 

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11 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

I listened to Doncaster on Sportsound and he was essentially saying that Killie could forfeit the Betfred Cup Games v Falkirk and Dunfermline, but that they do not have the powers to do so for a league game.  It would be somewhat bizarre if Falkirk and Dunfermline were awarded a 3-0 win but not Motherwell FC for exactly the same set of circumstances. Inability to field a team. 

The interesting point was that St Mirren could prove the rest of their squad was OK and unlikely to have breached strict bubbles / guidelines.  Whereas Kilmarnock were unable to do this !  So one wonders what any investigation will uncover...….

As much as I would like the 3 points without playing this would be a minefield and the least likely option.  The game will be re-scheduled and if it is found that Killie players have breached protocols then there is a precedence to punish the players and even fine the club. IMHO you cannot find Kilmarnock FC guilty on the basis of stupidity of players much like the Aberdeen 8. Ban the guilty players for X games and make sure our game is re-scheduled during that timeframe.  Assuming there has been any wrongdoing from Killie players.  Innocent until proven guilty etc.

 

I agree Iain but the point of protocol is to assure that Scottish football Premier league continues as Nicola would soon shut it down  if protocol is not being followed.

What I would be worried about if a Killie supporter is the whole staff have to self isolate which suggests to me that NHS Ayrshire have found evidence of players/staff not sticking to their bubbles, but there again I could be adding 2+2 and getting 8, but as you said innocent until proven guilty.

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1 hour ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

It would be somewhat bizarre if Falkirk and Dunfermline were awarded a 3-0 win but not Motherwell FC for exactly the same set of circumstances. Inability to field a team. 

Nah, I've droned on about it in a few posts already. The implications for a league are totally different from a cup. 

The reason it's more acceptable in cup competitions is while it gives one team an advantage (they progress to the next round without kicking a ball), it doesn't disadvantage anyone other than the team that's forfeited the game. If a game is forfeited in the league it gives a team an unfair advantage over all the other clubs as they gain 3 unearned points. 

It's similar to why intentionally fielding a weakened team in the league is an offence but not if you do it in the cups. 

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6 minutes ago, CoF said:

Nah, I've droned on about it in a few posts already. The implications for a league are totally different from a cup. 

The reason it's more acceptable in cup competitions is while it gives one team an advantage (they progress to the next round without kicking a ball), it doesn't disadvantage anyone other than the team that's forfeited the game. If a game is forfeited in the league it gives a team an unfair advantage over all the other clubs as they gain 3 unearned points. 

It's similar to why intentionally fielding a weakened team in the league is an offence but not if you do it in the cups. 

That is a very valid point. 

However it does fall down in that the Betfred Cup starts as a mini league. So if Killie forfeit games v Falkirk and Dunfermline how does that not unfairly disadvantage Clyde and Dumbarton who are in the same league  ? 

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