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Andy_P

Season 2020’21: Game 30: St Mirren (A)

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3 hours ago, wellowell said:

I do not think games will be played as since this all teams have made an effort to play . If Celtic have 13, players out and still playing games then although Saints and Killie thought Celtic going to Dubai helped their case I think the opposite . If Celtic had not played tonight think it was a certainty our games would be replayed but as Killie and ST Mirren made no effort to play weakened teams sure appeal will be thrown out . It is the SPFL though so anything is possible .

100%. 
Don’t think they can have Celtic breaking protocols and playing a reserve team whilst St Mirren & Killie break protocols, get the games called off and then play them with a full team...

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The big mistake people are making is they are applying logic. This is Scottish football we are talking about here. Wouldn't be surprised if they docked us more points. 

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I see the appeal will be heard at 1800 hrs tonight, so god knows when that will be finalised, it might be not known the result tonight the way this SPFL/SFA organise and decide events.

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Handsome Devil on FPC wrote a very good post about the situation, far better than I could have done and he's captured the issues very well. In short he says that Kilmarnock and St Mirren's arguments will be have to be based on proportionality i.e. the punishment was totally out of line with the admitted breaches. The independent panel which originally sat and dished out the sentences seemed to take a comprehensive view with all factors considered. The 2 main issues are that:

1 Unlike normal cancellations for adverse weather, the consequences of their failings may have been very serious in that their employees could have spread the virus to other individuals in the community. Not everyone who contracts the virus is asymptomatic or has mild symptomes; and

2  The 2 clubs should not benefit, or be seen to benefit, from breaking protocols and hence the cancellation, as originally,  they would have had to play with severely weakened teams against rivals. A financial penalty would not address this. 

In the current climate of tightening restrictions and punisments, and Scottish football being on a last warning I don't think they should expect special treatment and leniency.

However its the SPFL and SFA we're dealing with, albeit through another independent panel, and sio I wouldn't bet on the outcome. 

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19 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Handsome Devil on FPC wrote a very good post about the situation, far better than I could have done and he's captured the issues very well. In short he says that Kilmarnock and St Mirren's arguments will be have to be based on proportionality i.e. the punishment was totally out of line with the admitted breaches. The independent panel which originally sat and dished out the sentences seemed to take a comprehensive view with all factors considered. The 2 main reasons why their arguments, being presented by a highly paid QC, are that:

1 Unlike normal cancellations for adverse weather, the consequences of their failings may have been very serious in that their employees could have spread the virus to other individuals in the community. Not everyone who contracts the virus is asymptomatic or has mild symptomes; and

2  The 2 clubs should not benefit, or be seen to benefit, from breaking protocols and hence the cancellation, as originally,  they would have had to play with severely weakened teams against rivals. A financial penalty would not address this. 

In the current climate of tightening restrictions and punisments, and Scottish football being on a last warning I don't think they should expect special treatment and leniency.

However its the SPFL and SFA we're dealing with, albeit through another independent panel, and sio I wouldn't bet on the outcome. 

As I said before, I don't understand how the SFA/SPFL can entertain an appeal from both clubs given that at the first hearing, they both admitted guilt.

However, I agree with your point on proportionality and I think they are really more interested in getting their £40K fines dropped.

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Games will be rearranged with a token fine to both teams..........Celtic will be fined an even smaller amount......will be amazed if there is any other punishment........it’s Scottish football hierarchy 

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I assume they appealed because the process allows for an appeal and there is no downside if they fail. Their fine was suspended anyway, so dropping it shouldn't make much of a difference.

Celtic haven't (yet) failed to fulfill any of their fixtures and, according to Jason Leitch, didn't break any rules by traveling to Dubai. The SPFL/SFA are much less concerned when games aren't cancelled, so I wouldn't expect to see much action there.

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It could go either way and even a chance they could have a different outcome for St Mirren v say Kilmarnock. They could decide the punishment was fair for the former and not the latter. So we get 3 points from St Mirren but have to replay the Kilmarnock game. 

What is interesting in all of this is whether sporting integrity prevails. We are The innocent party in all this and yet as has been mentioned here and on P&B when theses games were due to be played we were winning and on a better run than we are now. In addition St Mirren have strengthened their squad with additions of Brophy and Quaner. What if we replay the St Mirren game and Brophy scores a winner. How is that fair or practical. 

If the decision is changed and we do have to play both games I hope the club have their say on this whole debacle. A strongly worded statement since every other club seems to issue statements at the drop of a hat. We have been very quiet until now which is probably the correct strategy but it will be interesting to see how we respond if any decision could effectively penalise Motherwell FC. 

 

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30 minutes ago, Pettywulliegrew-2 said:

Games will be rearranged with a token fine to both teams..........Celtic will be fined an even smaller amount......will be amazed if there is any other punishment........it’s Scottish football hierarchy 

Morally dubious yes, but not sure Celtic have broken any rules as such. If they had failed to play Hibs the other night that would've been a different story but can't see them being charged with wrongdoing on this occasion. 

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1 hour ago, El Grew said:

As I said before, I don't understand how the SFA/SPFL can entertain an appeal from both clubs given that at the first hearing, they both admitted guilt.

Same as  criminal courts, I guess... you can still appeal the sentence even if you pleaded guilty.

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16 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

We are The innocent party in all this and yet as has been mentioned here and on P&B when theses games were due to be played we were winning and on a better run than we are now. In addition St Mirren have strengthened their squad with additions of Brophy and Quaner. What if we replay the St Mirren game and Brophy scores a winner. How is that fair or practical. 

If the decision is changed and we do have to play both games I hope the club have their say on this whole debacle. A strongly worded statement since every other club seems to issue statements at the drop of a hat. We have been very quiet until now which is probably the correct strategy but it will be interesting to see how we respond if any decision could effectively penalise Motherwell FC. 

Agree with that Iain. Not only are we the innocent party but we have been unfairly disadvantaged. As I've said before I've no problem with the games being played so long as Killie and St Mirren don't benefit. In other words they would have to select their teams from the players they had available to play at the time. If that includes youth players, so be it

I would say to them, be careful what you wish for. 

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1 hour ago, Stu92 said:

Morally dubious yes, but not sure Celtic have broken any rules as such. If they had failed to play Hibs the other night that would've been a different story but can't see them being charged with wrongdoing on this occasion. 

It’s as Well daft has mentioned it’s sporting integrity........would Hibs have gained a point against a full strength Celtic ? 
The self isolation will continue till the Livy games........who will then, as Hibs gain an advantage with playing an under strength Celtic  

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I think a possibility would be for the panel to give the points to Well and Accies but make it a 1-0 scoreline. That way  they are punished but less so than previously. I think the 3-0 score is a bit severe and could have a marked effect come the end of the season.

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The focus is on whether St Mirren or Kilmarnock could field stronger teams if the games get played. What if Gallagher, O'Donnell and Campbell leave this month? Two full and one U21 international players missing because those 2 couldn't fulfil their fixtures and the SPFL won't let us fulfil ours.

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Fielding stronger teams now, compared to what they would have been able to field is surely the most relevant fact. By breaking the rules (which they’ve admitted to) and having cancelled/ been unable to fulfil the fixture, both teams have gained a sporting advantage. Why should we be penalised? 

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Would be funny if the appeals panel came back and revised the punishment by deducting 3 points per cancelled game from them instead.

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From BBC website ........Making space for our re arranged games ???????

Four Scottish Premiership matches and a full Championship card will fill the void left by the postponement of the Scottish Cup third round.

Wednesday's called-off game between Livingston and Aberdeen, and the 3 March meeting of Celtic and St Mirren, will now be on 30 January.

So, too, will Dundee Utd v Hibernian and Kilmarnock v St Johnstone, both of which were due to be on 10 February.

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The Kilmarnock Twitter had mentioned a short time ago that the appeals have now been heard and they will update when they have the final verdict.  Precious six points if we get them back. If the games are to be played it will be interesting to hear the reasoning. 

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The initial decision reasoning put a lot of weight on the fact that postponing games is simply not an option this season. The SPFL found Celtic a Monday night slot because they wanted to do some extra training / rest some players, so there's that argument gone. 

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22 minutes ago, CoF said:

The initial decision reasoning put a lot of weight on the fact that postponing games is simply not an option this season. The SPFL found Celtic a Monday night slot because they wanted to do some extra training / rest some players, so there's that argument gone. 

that fixture was played exactly within the same calendar  ‘round of fixtures’ it was originally scheduled.

there are plenty of flaws this season including for Celtic,  but a Monday night slot was not ‘found’ 

i had sympathy for the clubs impacted by covid, and still feel for public health reasons it was correct that our games were postponed/ cancelled as it wasn’t clear if the players that would have turned out were covid clear and safe to interact with our players and the officials 

having read both reports, it’s clear that both clubs didn’t treat the protocols with due respect or even common sense  from the govt advice.

the punishments handed out were harsh, but at the same time the panel choose to only punish events that the public health bodies felt led directly to the transmission of the virus.

as such , the appeal could easily look again at all the breaches, St.Mirren in particular had an appalling list of failings, many of which were noted , but not punished.

if this was the case and level of punishment was more balanced, Killie could receive a lesser punishment and St.Mirren probably deserve to be hammered as they truly did not implement the required controls almost mocking the seriousness of the situation.

 

 

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