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Goggles & Flippers

Killle £1m bailout Vs Astute Management

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I sincerely hope there are criteria (such as significant belt tightening) to access this taxpayer money. Otherwise what is to stop all teams going out and bettering their squad to secure top flight status or league position. 

Rangers now have "the" preceding the name because they looked to secure better players than they could have afforded if they had to pay them the taxes they should have. That ensured a sporting advantage.

Maybe I'm finding the Killie thing here all the more galling as due to astute financial management and sales we've just registered a 750k swing to a health profit. Does getting ahead of yourself ever benefit you?

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From what I know this is a loan that would need repaid which would impact the club at a future date and as it should ensure people don’t lose their jobs I’ve no problems with that. 

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If it is for business continuity and ensuring jobs are not lost, as Stuwell2 says, then fair enough and no objections here. I'm not sure that's entirely what is going on though, given they are openly and actively in the transfer market at the moment. As you say G&F, is that them gaining a sporting advantage over those not needing the loan due to astute management? 

I am pleased to see that we have just turned a healthy profit, with a 21/22 profit also expected given the Turnbull money (albeit reduced due to lack of fans through the turnstiles).  I suspect that most other clubs will continue to feel the effects of this for a while, so happy of the position we're in financially. Just need to make sure we stay in the league now.

Events of the last few months have turned me into a bit of a cynic of all things Scottish football. I don't think the SPFL/SFA points hokey cokey has helped that. But I just can't quite fathom how clubs are continuing to maintain or increase their playing budgets in these times. Aberdeen and Hibs both spending 6-figure transfer fees; both Dundee sides signing the likes of Adam, Shankland, McNulty et al on reportedly hefty wages while also imposing wage cuts; Hearts continue to recruit way beyond the means of a Championship side after their spiel last season of what relegation would do to them financially; St Mirren seemingly blowing their wage budget out of the water in another push for the top 4/6; Celtic going on winter trips to Dubai despite also putting their youth team on furlough. Conspiratorial hat firmly on here, but I would not be surprised in the slightest to hear a coordinated "we're aw skint cus you wouldn't let fans in to grounds, gies more money" bailout plea to the Government in the next year or so, despite elevated spending across the board.

I got a bit off topic there, apologies. Fuck Killie.

 

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The criteria here - and in any possible circumstance - is, professional football does not exist on planet Earth and is therefore not subject to the laws of reality.

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I assume we're talking about Killie applying for the Holyrood Government emergency loan and then saying that they're making cash available to bring in another player? 

I agree with Stu92 in being puzzled as to how clubs can fork out such large sums on players when they can't afford it. Their fans and shareholders should be rigorously holding them to account about this, especially those of Dundee and their neighbours, given what they've been through. With the exception of Ross County all this money will have to be paid back, however its dressed up.

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Kilmarnock wanting a government loan to help them through to the end of the season while at the same time saying there manager has funds to to sign players in january,they have a brass neck even asking and should be told to fuck right off.

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4 hours ago, Stu92 said:

 Celtic going on winter trips to Dubai despite also putting their youth team on furlough. 

It's the £10m+ they found in the summer that is the real farce. 

They claim to be a club rooted in charity, yet every penny they take in furlogh comes out the public purse and we all know it'll be offset by cuts to services essential to those at the bottom of the ladder. 

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I'm kind of mindful of the fact that questions were asked why Motherwell were signing players little more than a few weeks after a number of players had left the club when we went into administration back in 2002.  Our reply was something along the lines of are a professional football club who require players to play football and if we don't sign them we run the risk of relegation which puts the future of the club in some jeopardy. I don't really see any reason if asked why Kilmarnock need not respond along similar lines.

If there is finance for a club to tap into and they consider it best used to put towards their playing side then that's regardless of however unpleasant the look or the morals involved they are entitled to do that.

I'm glad however in this instance it isn't us!

 

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But surely if that money is used to afford players they wouldn’t have been able to afford without it to maintain their top flight status at the expense of teams around them is a bit hard to square that circle.

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I can't really see the difference between killie getting an emergency loan from the government due to covid or going to a bank for the same.

If they need it to keep the club going then I assume it will be used for that, however if they want to use some of it to fund new players then that's there choice, it's not a new concept a team fielding a new player or two financed on borrowed cash.

As long as they are prepared to ser ice the loans and are comfortable with the debt then let them get on with it, I would suggest in the Current climate its not the best way to run a club,  but its their choice.

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Business borrows money all the time to operate 

especially to fund the systems required for them to function/operate in direct competition with their competitors  

why should football be any different 

N.b a lot of our fans seem oblivious that our club do the same thing including accessing this govt loan ( or a  similar scheme) which is on hugely preferential terms to  some alternative s

ps I consider many in football to have lost touch with their privileged position in society at this time, but borrowing money to sustain trading at the level they are practicing currently is just normal business 

 

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1 hour ago, Andy_P said:

I'm kind of mindful of the fact that questions were asked why Motherwell were signing players little more than a few weeks after a number of players had left the club when we went into administration back in 2002.  Our reply was something along the lines of are a professional football club who require players to play football and if we don't sign them we run the risk of relegation which puts the future of the club in some jeopardy.

 

That was part of the explanation Andy. Yes, a club has to have enough players to remain competitive. The other factor was that we released say 8 players earning £2k per week and signed 7 players earning say £1k per week saving £9k per week (I can't recall the exact figures). 

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As far as I know Killie negotiated a small fee with St Mirren to move Brophy on early and let's face it bringing in a player for less than half a season, probably on loan, is not going to be a huge amount of money compared to overall operating costs.

I also think our 'financial astuteness' is being over egged a bit.

Covid actually did us a big favour getting us a 3rd place and Europe that we probably wouldn't have got otherwise and of course selling a once in a generation talent for a record fee is something that only happens.....well once in a generation.

Looking ahead is difficult but I think there is still a strong chance there will be fan restrictions next season and perhaps during the winter no fans at all.

Scottish football is in a perilous financial situation and a year or two down the line there is no knowing what will happen, especially with a potential relegation hanging over us.

I don't think we should be getting too full of ourselves.  Seems to me our current situation is more fortune than astuteness.

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23 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I don't think we should be getting too full of ourselves.  Seems to me our current situation is more fortune than astuteness.

I think you're being overly hard on us. We are now debt free and that didn't come about by sheer luck. Our business model is to develop our own talent to sell on and showcase under achieving talent from lower leagues down south. That, fan ownership and prudent management has largely got us to where we are off the field.

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41 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I also think our 'financial astuteness' is being over egged a bit.

Covid actually did us a big favour getting us a 3rd place and Europe that we probably wouldn't have got otherwise and of course selling a once in a generation talent for a record fee is something that only happens.....well once in a generation.

Looking ahead is difficult but I think there is still a strong chance there will be fan restrictions next season and perhaps during the winter no fans at all.

Scottish football is in a perilous financial situation and a year or two down the line there is no knowing what will happen, especially with a potential relegation hanging over us.

I don't think we should be getting too full of ourselves.  Seems to me our current situation is more fortune than astuteness.

I think that does the board and coaching staff and the work they've done over the last half decade or so a considerable disservice, particularly given the current set of accounts doesn't even include the sale of the aforementioned "once in a generation talent".

The plan was clearly stated from day one that their perceived route of progression was to eradicate outstanding debts and improve the financial standing of the club through the development and subsequent sale of our talent augmented by recruitment and selling at a profit where possible.   A David Turnbull or James Scott doesn't just drop out of the sky, they are identified, recruited and coached for what in some cases are more than a decade.   A Marvin Johnson, Ben Heneghan or Louis Moult similarly isn't just a random pick.

Whilst there have been factors like Hutchinson's "Double your money" scheme which chipped away at the debt there is no question that the route taken has been hugely successful in transforming the position of the club when fan ownership became a reality to the position we find ourselves in now.  I think there's a bit more too it than mere fortune.

EDIT: TLDNR version - largely what Dave posted more quickly and more succinctly.

 

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6 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

I think that does the board and coaching staff and the work they've done over the last half decade or so a considerable disservice, particularly given the current set of accounts doesn't even include the sale of the aforementioned "once in a generation talent"

I never said they had done a bad job. 

I just pointed out that most of the financial windfalls that we've profited from recently have been out with the control or any planning that the board could have made...and that we shouldn't get too smug about our current financial situation.

And I think there is such a thing as hubris and for some of our supporters to criticise other clubs, particularly since we've survived off loans for a lot of our recent history, is a bit hypocritical.

As I said Scottish football is not exactly a money printing machine.   I'm not saying it will be the case, but a year or two down the line it's possible that we might need similar assistance, especially as we have no idea how the whole covid situation is going to go and that it's  looking like Turnbull might well be our last big sale for a while. 

With regards to finances and the whole covid situation I think too many of our supporters lack a little bit of foresight and revel too much in 'we're alright Jack' mindset not realising that if you can guarantee one thing in life it's that circumstances are in a constant state of flux and when bad things happen, usually, you didn't see them coming. 

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