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Motherwell v Celtic 16/10/2021

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34 minutes ago, mfc said:

433 will work for certain games but today and places like tynecastle it just isnt the answer,we can't afford to give the better teams in the league the freedom of the middle of the park,I get we've done it all season gave up possession but the better teams will ultimately punish us.

Exactly what we were saying… after about 15 mins when we did quite well, Celtic found it very easy to pass round and through our 3 man midfield. It makes them look very exposed, but I think the problem is more the shape than the players. I thought we should have taken off Roberts or Woollery and put on O’Hara at half time… and maybe then taken the other one off and put in Van Veen. 
 

We’ve seen this in other games and got away with it. Quite annoying today as others have said, because that Celtic defence are there to be got at… as various teams - especially in Europe - have shown. 

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Just now, ohwulliewullie said:

Exactly what we were saying… after about 15 mins when we did quite well, Celtic found it very easy to pass round and through our 3 man midfield. It makes them look very exposed, but I think the problem is more the shape than the players.

Shape or players? Bit of a chicken and the egg situation.

However our midfield has been absolutely garbage in every match I've seen this season.  We've had 40% or less possession in 5 out of 9 matches this season and we've averaged 38% over all the matches.

I think we've been reasonable at the back, we've scored in most of our games, midfield is where the improvement needs to be.

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5 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Shape or players? Bit of a chicken and the egg situation.

However our midfield has been absolutely garbage in every match I've seen this season.  We've had 40% or less possession in 5 out of 9 matches this season and we've averaged 38% over all the matches.

I think we've been reasonable at the back, we've scored in most of our games, midfield is where the improvement needs to be.

I agree with you… although I think what I’m saying is that a change in shape to have four in midfield *I think* would give us more possession… help us get forward… support the front players (and reduce the number of crosses into our box at the other end for that matter)… create more chances… 

In other words, to get out of the chicken and egg scenario…. Try changing the shape first - which is easier than changing the players. It might even make the midfield players look better as well. 

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When did we last have such a bad run against Celtic? I certainly don’t remember anything like this in my time anyway.

That’s us now lost nine on the bounce and we haven’t beaten them for almost six years. 
 

Obviously they are going to win the majority of games against us but as has been said we look beaten before a ball is kicked in this fixture now. Even back when they had Larsson, Moravcik, Sutton and Lambert etc and had Martin O’Neill as manager we at least managed to draw against them once a season and even managed the odd win.

That, along with our already dismal record against Rangers in the last twenty years has to be a cause for concern. The club really need to address our mentality in these games.

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1 hour ago, Yodo said:

They weren't on target nowhere near the goals yer grasping at straws there 

Perhaps, but its a fact. 

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I’m not a fan of our current midfield and forward set up.

we’ve been ruthless in front of goal and won several games we could easily have lost .

as many have said the back 4 are fine and have plenty of options .

continuing with a weak 3 man midfield is frustrating - (sorry Grimmie )

similar with continuing to play 3 forwards with Woolley - who hasn’t shone for me at all . 
 

I find GA to be overly arrogant - his view of possession and allowing teams to have so many shots frustrates me .  That said I’m very happy with the points tally and although gut view is we’ve ridden our luck I can’t argue with the results. 

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9 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

I’m not a fan of our current midfield and forward set up.

we’ve been ruthless in front of goal and won several games we could easily have lost .

as many have said the back 4 are fine and have plenty of options .

continuing with a weak 3 man midfield is frustrating - (sorry Grimmie )

similar with continuing to play 3 forwards with Woolley - who hasn’t shone for me at all . 
 

I find GA to be overly arrogant - his view of possession and allowing teams to have so many shots frustrates me .  That said I’m very happy with the points tally and although gut view is we’ve ridden our luck I can’t argue with the results. 

I’m still of the belief we would see a decent improvement with the addition of another quality midfielder, maybe our budget is maxed out. As it stands thought it’s a tough gig for Slattery.

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I just don’t get the Grimmy negativity on here and In the stands . Clearly not the most gifted player in the world but works his socks off and doesn’t hide .

 

Can’t say the same for our captain - not just today but on many occasions. His positional sense when defending is naive at best and his negativity whilst in possession is shocking. He cheats his team mates tucking in behind their player to hide so he can’t receive the ball. 
 

As for the defence being great and midfield pish this season - the defence have been 4 v 1 or 4v 2 all season with a complete reluctance from any of them to push on and help the midfield ( although this may be under managers instruction not to) our midfield has been outnumbered every game by one or two players in every match - today looked worse due to the quality of the opponent and a complete lack of desire and knowledge on the part of the front 3. Was Tony Wart injured today or could he just not be arsed? 

The players we have especially defensively would suit 352 set up. 

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2 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m still of the belief we would see a decent improvement with the addition of another quality midfielder, maybe our budget is maxed out. As it stands thought it’s a tough gig for Slattery.

Slattery Is a mile of the pace marks space which is a luxury we can't afford DT gave him a lesson tonday let's hope he learns from it 

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Just back from the game, we offered nothing and got what we deserved ie nothing, but that said Kelly was well at fault For the 1st goal and could do nothing about Turnbulls goal, that was a beauty but apart from that he never had a serious save to make.

For all Celtics possession they created very few if any serious chances they were average at best but we never pressed or tested them so we could have done a lot better, we gave them an easy ride.

Not saying we would  have got anything from the game, but we never tested their suspect defence and for me that's the disappointing thing.

But we are still top six and only six points off the top so it's going well.

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The penalty decision confirmed Celtic getting away with murder. I didn't think I'd ever see a worse decision than the previous Bolingoli handball at Fir Park but there you go.

We were pish but the pair of shitebags in black made a two goal swing in a 2-0 game. 

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18 minutes ago, Motherwellfc1991 said:

I just don’t get the Grimmy negativity on here and In the stands . Clearly not the most gifted player in the world but works his socks off and doesn’t hide .

I love Grimmies effort - my issue is I don’t believe he works as 3 man midfield - we’d need players who can hold and pass to make that work.  He simply isn’t capable .

he could work as part of a 4 man midfield 

 

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1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

Just back from the game, we offered nothing and got what we deserved ie nothing, but that said Kelly was well at fault For the 1st goal and could do nothing about Turnbulls goal, that was a beauty but apart from that he never had a serious save to make.

For all Celtics possession they created very few if any serious chances they were average at best but we never pressed or tested them so we could have done a lot better, we gave them an easy ride.

Not saying we would  have got anything from the game, but we never tested their suspect defence and for me that's the disappointing thing.

But we are still top six and only six points off the top so it's going well.

Plus one……..the manager’s” dream” of beating Celtic at home with Woolery and  Robert’s up front gave me more of the fear than Gollum as referee…along with a midfield that forgot to tackle ……these turgid tactics everybody behind the ball  with no out ball will work against the majority of the SPL..but letting Celtic dictate the game was never going to work..the only weak spot they have we surrendered……..pish poor Celtic team there for the taking…………..But we will move on etc etc total pish

 

edit Not very good at shutting down

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3 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

I love Grimmies effort - my issue is I don’t believe he works as 3 man midfield - we’d need players who can hold and pass to make that work.  He simply isn’t capable .

he could work as part of a 4 man midfield 

 

He either charged out aimlessly when they had the ball near the halfway line or hid beside the back 4 when we were under pressure. 

Second game in a row we've improved massively after he went off.

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Well, I have  to admit I almost believed GA in his ballsy pre-match interview that we had belief and would seek to exploit weaknesses in the opposition, who had lost three away games already, I think.

Instead we sat off Celtic and  conceded the initiative after about 15 minutes. Our three-man midfield was badly exposed with Slattery outnumbered and doomed to come second-best in every challenge while both Grimshaw  and  Goss (admittedly in his first start)  were largely absent. If even  I can see this, why can't the manager?

I think Woollery is  far from the answer because he doesn't know where/when to run and I'm presuming Van Veen was injured not to play from the start. Is Sondre also injured also or is there a problem with him in the manager's eyes? Admittedly, the midfield is the main problem area but I think  O'Hara would have been better than Grimshaw. That said, a three was always in danger of being  outgunned.

Once again, even with Collum thankfully absent with his wee strain, the officials seem to have missed a clear penalty, although I was in the POD and only saw/heard the crowd reaction. A goal at that stage might have given us the momentum for a scrapy draw, because the Sellick defence is really shaky.

Difficult games coming up so  it's the time for the manager to have a major rethink, if he is capable of that.

 

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Any combination of midfield 3 we have at the club wouldn’t have got near what was in effect at least 4 sometimes 5 from Celtic - that can only be resolved by the manager but my issue is that when we are in possession O’Donnell needs to do more to show for the ball , not hide and drive the team forward - not stand with a body shape that only allows him to knock the ball backwards. One of the back 4 can also step forward to help the 3 v 4/5 - they don’t seem to be able to read that though. 

As for Grimmy charging towards the ball why would the defence be outnumbered when we played 4 at the back and they had 2 up top?  our front 3 invited them onto us from the word go as they didn’t know what they were meant to be doing - that was the route cause of the problems today. 

Ohara would be the better option !!!!! Did you watch him at Tynecastle chasing shadows and failing to make one challenge - reminded me of a mix of Shauan Fagan and Mark Fitzpatrick. 

 

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For what it's worth, don't think we applied enough pressure on Celtics defence, the Joe Hart wobble showed how fragile they are at the back. Disappointed big Kev didn't start as I thought he would have been the one to pressure them. On David Turbull, terrific finish and absolute class the way he handled himself when scoring. Put some of the boo boys on here about him to shame:fan:

 

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"Ohara would be the better option !!!!! Did you watch him at Tynecastle chasing shadows and failing to make one challenge - reminded me of a mix of Shauan Fagan and Mark Fitzpatrick." 

And so Grimmy is the answer?  Trouble is we are picking from a shallow pool/ basket of deplorables. Why is that and what do we do about  it?

 

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Just going with general opinion,  4 3 3 needs changed,  grimmy gives you everything but is very limited,  woolery I am sorry but doesn't bring enough and left back is a big problem.    Blatant handball a disgrace so spare me the pish from sellik fans that they never get decisions.   And also fair play to turnbull for not celebrating though I am bewildered he got booed early on, jeez get a grip!!, lifelong well fan,  signs new contract to get us max money buy yet still gets stick,  embarrassing 

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14 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

   And also fair play to turnbull for not celebrating though I am bewildered he got booed early on, jeez get a grip!!, lifelong well fan,  signs new contract to get us max money buy yet still gets stick,  embarrassing 

He smiled when his new mates jumped on top of him

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32 minutes ago, ropy said:

He smiled when his new mates jumped on top of him

To be fair,  he is now a celtic player so is hardly going to celebrate like victor Meldrew,  I just thought it was nice touch of class not to run about mad after scoring 

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I’m generally not a fan of players not celebrating scoring against their former clubs but it was a nice touch from Turnbull to keep his celebrations muted today. When you think of previous players who have moved from FP to Glasgow’a East End and their reaction to scoring against us, ie. Scott McDonald’s badge kissing and our aforementioned former Cup winning captain and his general wankishness then it was nice to see Turnbull showing a bit of class.

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2 hours ago, Happy Dosser said:

Well, I have  to admit I almost believed GA in his ballsy pre-match interview that we had belief and would seek to exploit weaknesses in the opposition, who had lost three away games already, I think.

Instead we sat off Celtic and  conceded the initiative after about 15 minutes. Our three-man midfield was badly exposed with Slattery outnumbered and doomed to come second-best in every challenge while both Grimshaw  and  Goss (admittedly in his first start)  were largely absent. If even  I can see this, why can't the manager?

I think Woollery is  far from the answer because he doesn't know where/when to run and I'm presuming Van Veen was injured not to play from the start. Is Sondre also injured also or is there a problem with him in the manager's eyes? Admittedly, the midfield is the main problem area but I think  O'Hara would have been better than Grimshaw. That said, a three was always in danger of being  outgunned.

Once again, even with Collum thankfully absent with his wee strain, the officials seem to have missed a clear penalty, although I was in the POD and only saw/heard the crowd reaction. A goal at that stage might have given us the momentum for a scrapy draw, because the Sellick defence is really shaky.

Difficult games coming up so  it's the time for the manager to have a major rethink, if he is capable of that.

 

Sondre has an achilles injury, although involved in the warm up he will not be near starting until that's cleared up. Also Kelly was playing with a back injury but was preferred over Fox 

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This team is still in the making. I have a feeling we will not see Grimmy, O'Hara, Crawford, Donnelly, McGinley, Carroll or Maguire next season.

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