Alexander.

[wellsince75]

I doubt that it's the financial impact that makes us hesitate.  The question is what faith the club have in him to make good. 

Personally I've not liked our style of play under his stewardship - even when we were winning .  We won games with 2-3 shots on goal, it was horrible to watch. 
When we stopped winning there's nowhere to hide with this style of play.

Once the mgr has lost the dressing room it's rare for him to get it back.   Gut feel is he lost the dressing room around the same time Watt left and other senior pros were dropped. 

The worst thing about tonight is the result wasn't remotely surprising , I don't see GA changing , the question will be whether the club have faith or not that brighter times are ahead. 

[grizzlyg]

We spent £800,000 on a pitch so money cant be that right. Money well spent when you have a manager that plays hoofball tactics. Sorry but I am just raging after seeing team I love being embarrassed. Not all Alexander's fault....the players were a disgrace to the jersey 

[Well Well]

3 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

We spent £800,000 on a pitch so money cant be that right. Money well spent when you have a manager that plays hoofball tactics. Sorry but I am just raging after seeing team I love being embarrassed. Not all Alexander's fault....the players were a disgrace to the jersey 

The money spent on the pitch was to save money in the medium to long term not just a splash the cash to make it look good.

[dennyc]

26 minutes ago, Well Well said:

 

 

I dont disagree with getting rid but people need to see the cold hard facts, you cant worm yourself out of a contract. The club wouldn't do it because

1. No player or manager would join this club if they thought the contract wasn't worth the paper its written on

2. The club would be taken to court and would lose heavily having to pay considerable legal costs and compensation

3. Reputational damage would be immense.

 

1. There are dozens of Managers....unemployed and otherwise....who would jump at the chance of working at Fir Park. Every vacancy at every Club draws lots of applications. Everybody believes it will never happen to them.

2. Managers are sacked all the time.  Most result in buy out terms being agreed. Perhaps even by continuing a monthly salary to (mitigate one off costs) unless the displaced Manager secures another job. No reason Motherwell could not do similar.

3. Our reputation is already being damaged every day that Alexander continues. Motherwell are well respected off the pitch and I think it does more damage to that reputation if we do not act, and certainly if we end up adrift at the wrong end of the League.

There are times when loyalty is actually seen as a weakness. I think this is one of them.

[El Grew]

26 minutes ago, Well Well said:

I dont disagree with getting rid but people need to see the cold hard facts, you cant worm yourself out of a contract. The club wouldn't do it because

1. No player or manager would join this club if they thought the contract wasn't worth the paper its written on

2. The club would be taken to court and would lose heavily having to pay considerable legal costs and compensation

3. Reputational damage would be immense.

I understand the emotions tonight,  however, its wishful thinking that the club has special arrangements or clauses in contracts where they can get rid without paying compensation or minimal compensation that suits the club. That is dream land stuff. IF the club have a clause I would imagine a set fixed compensation of some sort would be there or the extension has a clause that means he must hit certain targets/milestones for it to be triggered (most companies do these type of contracts)

I feel the same about GA and if he had any decency he would at least offer his resignation but the club will need to weigh up the financial costs of sacking him if he doesn't and his backroom team.

The club would also need to find funds to employ a new manager and backroom team AND find funds for new players....whilst letting go of players under contract to make way for the new guys to balance the books as much as possible. This would be paying off the balance of their contracts or at the absolute best them agreeing to leave and find a new club. Would you agree to leave when you have a guaranteed wage for two plus years for an unknown future with no wages and hoping another team will take you on when the league has already started?

I personally don't think we can afford all of that as a club despite our healthy bank balance.

That’s all well and good but football is a results based business for managers.  Surely there must be something in his contract covering his performance in that area.  He’s only managed 3 wins from our last 24 league games and if that’s not grounds for dismissal I don’t what is. 

A huge part of running any football club is about the risks around the football manager (e.g. whether he gets poached, performs badly etc.) so I’d like to think the club has mitigatory steps in place for all eventualities including the latter.

[fizoxy]

Can we just start the new manager thread now, for therapy purposes? It can't fail because:

1 - we can build some optimism that there are some decent options out there
Or 2 - relize we're doomed and start leaning into it.

[Well Well]

34 minutes ago, dennyc said:

1. There are dozens of Managers....unemployed and otherwise....who would jump at the chance of working at Fir Park. Every vacancy at every Club draws lots of applications. Everybody believes it will never happen to them.

2. Managers are sacked all the time.  Most result in buy out terms being agreed. Perhaps even by continuing a monthly salary to (mitigate one off costs) unless the displaced Manager secures another job. No reason Motherwell could not do similar.

3. Our reputation is already being damaged every day that Alexander continues. Motherwell are well respected off the pitch and I think it does more damage to that reputation if we do not act, and certainly if we end up adrift at the wrong end of the League.

There are times when loyalty is actually seen as a weakness. I think this is one of them.

your not responding to my points accurately you are not even addressing the reason why I made these point (someone saying we should just sack the manager without addressing the contract which may contain targets/milestones that may have been met by the manager like league survival, top 6 etc if he reached those milestones you can't just sack them its not that easy in real life) you points are just generalisations.

When managers are sacked the manager actually has the financial upper hand not the club (unless there is a milestone clause see above). They either pay the full contract or a sizeable compensation (if not, then the three points I explained would happen and you would not get anyone applying for the job) anything else you have said is just fantasy.

Motherwell cannot do something similar because when you sack someone you are no longer in control of what you can pay them in terms of compensation unless there is an agreement by both parties (see Milestone clause above). I don't know in what fantasy you think paying two managers a monthly wage would mitigate the cost to the club because it wouldn't. IF a manager agreed to such a ludicrous contract it would be over a set length of time not stop when he gets a new club or his compensation would be minimal. Fantasy stuff.

You can have a hundred managers applying to the club every time there is a vacancy (and they do) but those that can be taken seriously are on the fingers of one hand. 

Reputational damage means a lot to managers as well, if your a sacking club you would not get the type of manager you need coming forward. Sacking two managers in the space of two years does not look good and a manager can question the loyalty of the board when results are not going well. (not even as bad as GA have been)

[Well Well]

34 minutes ago, El Grew said:

That’s all well and good but football is a results based business for managers.  Surely there must be something in his contract covering his performance in that area.  He’s only managed 3 wins from our last 24 league games and if that’s not grounds for dismissal I don’t what is. 

A huge part of running any football club is about the risks around the football manager (e.g. whether he gets poached, performs badly etc.) so I’d like to think the club has mitigatory steps in place for all eventualities including the latter.

Most companies have contracts where you have to meet targets and milestones for the extra cash or in GA case a contract extension. I assume Motherwell contract is along similar lines and also offering suitable compensation to GA if they decide to part ways. It cannot all be one way for the club or no manager worth their salt would sign it (would you?). This would at least keep both the manager and the clubs reputation intact going forward. I would imagine that the manager has met all his milestones even exceeded them with European football secured for last year and he has not even started to address this seasons milestones.

[bobbybingo]

17 minutes ago, Well Well said:

Sacking two managers in the space of two years does not look good and a manager can question the loyalty of the board when results are not going well. (not even as bad as GA have been)

Robinson wasn't sacked.

[Well Well]

10 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Robinson wasn't sacked.

maybe not but he could not continue fulfilling the role much the same as Stuart McCall could not continue then the directors would be duty bound in their positions of responsibility ( exercise independent judgement, promote success of the company and exercise reasonable care, skill and diligence) to sack him and find someone else who could take the club forward. The club came to an agreement with both parties before it was required to sack them.

[mfc]

He had the brass neck to say we were the better team last week and should have won,then it was it's only half time in the tie and we will do better,the fans need to be with us and then it was it's do or die,clearly he's talking and nobody in the dressing room is listening.last week should have been a wake up call and as much as I want alexander gone the players involved over these 2 games have been a disgrace,we can talk about fitness and formations and all that but we should have had enough to get past sligo,clearly these players don't have any professional pride,we have to many strutting about thinking there something.

[bobbybingo]

4 minutes ago, Well Well said:

maybe not but he could not continue fulfilling the role much the same as Stuart McCall could not continue then the directors would be duty bound in their positions of responsibility ( exercise independent judgement, promote success of the company and exercise reasonable care, skill and diligence) to sack him and find someone else who could take the club forward. The club came to an agreement with both parties before it was required to sack them.

Your point was about managers not wanting to come to a club that keeps sacking managers.  The fact is, Robinson wasn't sacked. All clubs have managers leaving for one reason or another, but I think we've probably booted fewer than most.

[Well Well]

At the end of the day I honestly do not think the club will sack him. I think he will already have his list of milestones from the club for the season ahead and if he hits those milestones during the season then he will remain if he doesn't then I am sure the club will be having a chat with him regularly about them. I do not think anything regarding Europe will be on it.

[dennyc]

47 minutes ago, Well Well said:

your not responding to my points accurately you are not even addressing the reason why I made these point (someone saying we should just sack the manager without addressing the contract which may contain targets/milestones that may have been met by the manager like league survival, top 6 etc if he reached those milestones you can't just sack them its not that easy in real life) you points are just generalisations.

When managers are sacked the manager actually has the financial upper hand not the club (unless there is a milestone clause see above). They either pay the full contract or a sizeable compensation (if not, then the three points I explained would happen and you would not get anyone applying for the job) anything else you have said is just fantasy.

Motherwell cannot do something similar because when you sack someone you are no longer in control of what you can pay them in terms of compensation unless there is an agreement by both parties (see Milestone clause above). I don't know in what fantasy you think paying two managers a monthly wage would mitigate the cost to the club because it wouldn't. IF a manager agreed to such a ludicrous contract it would be over a set length of time not stop when he gets a new club or his compensation would be minimal. Fantasy stuff.

You can have a hundred managers applying to the club every time there is a vacancy (and they do) but those that can be taken seriously are on the fingers of one hand. 

Reputational damage means a lot to managers as well, if your a sacking club you would not get the type of manager you need coming forward. Sacking two managers in the space of two years does not look good and a manager can question the loyalty of the board when results are not going well. (not even as bad as GA have been)

I'm saying Clubs sack Managers all the time and more often than not the two sides come to some sort of mutually acceptable arrangement, avoiding Court action. Football is a fairly unique business and what is the norm elsewhere is not always the norm in football.

As examples....... we  have seen instances of large one off payments in full settlement, with a claw back effective if the payee secures another job within, for example, 12 months. Or a relatively small up front settlement with ongoing monthly payments for an agreed length of time. There are all sorts of agreements that can be entered into if there is willing.

And we will just have to also disagree on that reputational damage. There are plenty of up and coming Managers, ex players with Motherwell at heart, and out of work Managers that will not concern themselves one iota whether their potential employer sacked the previous job holder. To the contrary,  that is what is opening the door. Agreed not all will be of the required standard, but enough will be.

Bottom line...in my opinion it will do much more damage financially and reputationally to stick with Alexander. 

[Well Well]

3 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I'm saying Clubs sack Managers all the time and more often than not the two sides come to some sort of mutually acceptable arrangement, avoiding Court action. Football is a fairly unique business and what is the norm elsewhere is not always the norm in football.

As examples....... we  have seen instances of large one off payments in full settlement, with a claw back effective if the payee secures another job within, for example, 12 months. Or a relatively small up front settlement with ongoing monthly payments for an agreed length of time. There are all sorts of agreements that can be entered into if there is willing.

And we will just have to also disagree on that reputational damage. There are plenty of up and coming Managers, ex players with Motherwell at heart, and out of work Managers that will not concern themselves one iota whether their potential employer sacked the previous job holder. to the contrary,  that is what is opening the door. Agreed not all will be of the required standard, but enough will be.

Bottom line...in my opinion it will do much more damage financially and reputationally to stick with Alexander. 

Yeah I see where your coming from but I believe football is actually coming further under the business norms with footballers, managers etc taking clubs and world bodies to court even more regularly...Look at Bosman which shook up the way contracts are handled and changed the face of football forever. If anything I would like to see it go further with regulation of agents  but that's a conversation for another day...back to business...GA get yer finger out...!!!

[dennyc]

9 minutes ago, Well Well said:

Yeah I see where your coming from but I believe football is actually coming further under the business norms with footballers, managers etc taking clubs and world bodies to court even more regularly...Look at Bosman which shook up the way contracts are handled and changed the face of football forever. If anything I would like to see it go further with regulation of agents  but that's a conversation for another day...back to business...GA get yer finger out...!!!

I get your point as well. I think if that happens we will see Clubs limiting liability by just awarding 12 month contracts…perhaps rolling based on targets… which may actually hurt both parties in the long run.I wish we had done that or maybe we did.  Bosman was needed to protect players but it also created other unfair situations….hence Training and Development Compensation etc.  Now Clubs are finding a way round that , or at least ways to minimise payments. Agents are another story. All because sport is unique.

Re your last comment. I’ve been screaming that for a while. 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

Well, its taken a while, but he finally got me there. Im usually the last to turn when it comes to sacking a manager as I dont believe that chopping and changing all the time gives you the stable platform you require to build a successful club. But that tonight was the final straw for me. Last season was a brutal watch, especially the 2nd half from December on, but I honestly felt that he would be shrewd enough to identify the issues and do something about it, both in the transfer market and tactically. All it would have taken for me to remain on board would have been evidence that lessons had been learned and a plan for improvement was in place. However, last week and tonight has blown all of that out of the water. He persists with 4-3-3 despite it clearly not being effective with the players we have, and his substitutions are just mind boggling. He is the very personification of madness, doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results! I could be wrong, and I know our squad isnt the greatest we have ever seen, but I honestly dont think they are as bad as they currently look. It looks like none of them believe in what they are being asked to do and it is seriously effecting their confidence. Most of them look as if they are just going through the motions. I dont expect him to be sacked, not immediately anyway, but it just feels like a matter of time. If he loses to Robbos Motherwell Rejects on Sunday, the pressure on the board will be immense. I just dont see how he survives this. When it comes, it will feel like a relief......

[texanwellfan]

Can’t bring myself to go listen to his after match comments. 

[grizzlyg]

3 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Can’t bring myself to go listen to his after match comments. 

Don't, save yourself 

[Kmcalpin]

Until this evening I was on the fence but wavering. I didn't even think that a loss tonight would lead to his ousting, but I've now changed my mind. Perhaps last week would be a one off? Tonight has shown that it wasn't; anything but in fact. Little changed between the first and second legs.  I looked at the team selection and wondered where the goals were going to come from. All our eggs in one unfit "basket". GA showed faith in a poor defence and picked them again.

In all my years of supporting our club I've rarely seen the support so united and brassed off with a manager - maybe the power of social media ha swhipped up the frenzy? The manner of our exit has now meant that his departure in the near future is inevitable. I had thought he'd be given perhaps 2 months but I now very doubt that. The Board will ignore the fans' outrage, for thats what it is, at its peril and I don't think they'll do that.  I have no inside information but I think he'll be gone by Sunday or Monday at the latest. Dragging matters on will benefit no-one and could lead to an undesirable atmosphere at the St Johnstone game.

Time for change and now.

 

[Spiderpig]

6 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Until this evening I was on the fence but wavering. I didn't even think that a loss tonight would lead to his ousting, but I've now changed my mind. Perhaps last week would be a one off? Tonight has shown that it wasn't; anything but in fact. Little changed between the first and second legs.  I looked at the team selection and wondered where the goals were going to come from. All oue eggs in one unfit "basket". GA showed faith in a poor defence and picked them again.

In all my years of supporting our club I've rarely seen the support so united and brassed off with a manager - maybe the power of social media ha swhipped up the frenzy? The manner of our exit has now meant that his departure in the near future is inevitable. I had thought he'd be given perhaps 2 months but I now very doubt that. The Board will ignore the fans' outrage, for thats what it is, at its peril and I don't think they'll do that.  I have no inside information but I think he'll be gone by Sunday or Monday at the latest. Dragging matters on will benefit no-one and could lead to an undesirable atmosphere at the St Johnstone game.

Time for change and now.

 

Well said Dave, 100% agree, tonight was a painful watch

[Kmcalpin]

1 minute ago, Spiderpig said:

Well said Dave, 100% agree, tonight was a painful watch

Safe journey home Allan. I feel for you and all our travelling fans.

[Lobey_Dosser]

Having watched the Salford documentary at the time, I was pretty lukewarm to Alexander’s arrival. However, he came and dug us out of some serious trouble and he’s had my support since. The football maybe hasn’t been pleasing on the eye but in the first half of last season we had a bit of physicality, pace and character about us. We’ve been devoid of all that in the two Sligo games. 

The lack of preparation for our European adventure has been unforgivable. The one bounce game and friendly before the first leg smacked of arrogance, no friendly between legs is beyond belief. Embarrassment aside, this has cost us a helluva lot of money. 

Compounding the performances on the park, something just feels completely off at Fir Park. Selling Tony Watt to a competitor mid-Jan with 4 or 5 games before the end of the window made no sense, particularly when we still haven’t found a replacement. Our transfer business this summer has been uninspiring and frugal. The turnover of staff feels a little extreme and the apparent treatment of O’Donnell uncomfortable. 

I called for the sacking of Malpas, McCall, Baraclough and McGhee long before they were dismissed. This hasn’t been the case with Alexander but I can’t see him and his staff lasting much longer. The Board need to step in and try and make amends for a shambles of a summer so that the embarrassment of Sligo is a turning point and not a sign of things to come (ala Stjarnan).

[wellsince75]

My wife - not a football fan watched with me for 15 mins and asked if this was the first time the players knew each other .

She said the team in white don’t look like a team , just a bunch of guys running round .

the guys in red , the look like they have a plan .

Think she nailed the issue . GA hasn’t created a team and there is no game plan .

[Yodo]

Has to go before Sunday the fans showed what they think of him last night no way can he be allowed to be in charge of the team . Unfortunately the next manager will have to work with the squad we have and the poor quality of player within it , there is nothing in the middle of the park no pace no guile probably the worse midfield in years