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SteelmaninOZ

Motherwell v Hearts 20/11/2021

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Everyone would take a Scottish Cup win with no European prize over a Europa Cup place for league position.

But any European game/run is wonderful.

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45 minutes ago, ropy said:

Everyone would take a Scottish Cup win with no European prize over a Europa Cup place for league position.

But any European game/run is wonderful.

And everyone would take a couple of early season European games over the League Cup group ties against the same 3 teams.

Seeing as winning the Scottish Cup gets you into Europe anyway, you'll just need to take both and put up with it.

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1 hour ago, MJC_mkII said:

I can count on one hand the amount of ‘European’ games we’ve played that I have actually enjoyed.

If you offered me a 7th placed finish with a Scottish Cup win this season then I’d take that before finishing 3rd any day of the week. That would of course get us ‘European football’ next season but I would take much, much more satisfaction in that knowing that it was achieved by winning tangible success rather than a high placed league finish whilst we whimpered out of the cup.

That's not how it works though. You don't get to pick and it's far harder to win cups as it only takes a single bad refereeing decision - like Easter Road last season - to put you out.

We can't win every game so you try and win as many as possible and take what you get at the end of the season.

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Great result and a great all round performance on Saturday but I’m not going to get carried away. It was one of those games where most of not everything seemed to go for us from their poor passing/finishing to our players managing to string passes together and any loose ball dropping our way. 
My thoughts are that the last two games have been against opponents who were willing to play further up the park believing that they could match or out play us - which neither did. I suspect the next game, against Dundee, will see them sitting back further and hoping to hit us on the break. 

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After the Rangers games I don’t think anyone would have predicted 6 points from the next two games, many would have though two defeats. I’ve got zero complaints, it’s two fantastic wins.

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Mugabi was great
Sol was great
Lamie was great
Shields was great
Woolery was great
The Midfield was great.

Seeing Gordon so furious was great

Saturday was great

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3 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Mugabi was great
Sol was great
Lamie was great
Shields was great
Woolery was great
The Midfield was great.

Seeing Gordon so furious was great

Saturday was great

So you had a great time Busta :smoke:

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On 11/22/2021 at 12:57 PM, weeyin said:

And everyone would take a couple of early season European games over the League Cup group ties against the same 3 teams.

I wouldn’t.

Granted I’m probably in the minority on that one but I still prefer to see us playing in a competition we actually have a realistic chance of going far in than in one that is way beyond our reach.

On 11/22/2021 at 1:24 PM, steelboy said:

That's not how it works though. You don't get to pick and it's far harder to win cups as it only takes a single bad refereeing decision - like Easter Road last season - to put you out.

We can't win every game so you try and win as many as possible and take what you get at the end of the season.

I accept that and I’m not saying we should be aiming for bottom six so that we can focus on the Cups. It’s just that I’d prefer to see us win silverware and would consider that a much better and fulfilling achievement than playing a couple of glorified friendlies in the Europa League before the schools go back.

On 11/22/2021 at 6:44 PM, Yorkyred said:

After the Rangers games I don’t think anyone would have predicted 6 points from the next two games, many would have though two defeats. I’ve got zero complaints, it’s two fantastic wins.

Absolutely.

Looking at the run of fixtures it was difficult to see where our next point was coming from, never mind our next win. Yet we have beaten Aberdeen and Hearts and kept two clean sheets into the bargain. Kelly seems to have rediscovered his form in the last two games and looks a lot more confident.

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1 hour ago, MJC_mkII said:

I It’s just that I’d prefer to see us win silverware and would consider that a much better and fulfilling achievement than playing a couple of glorified friendlies in the Europa League before the schools go back.

Lucky teams win cups, consistently good teams qualify for Europe, some of my best and most memorable games as a well fan have been on our Euro adventures,  Nancy and Dortmund in the UEFA Cup, Athens in the champions league, for example, so here's hoping we are planning another trip next summer.

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4 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

Lucky teams win cups, consistently good teams qualify for Europe, some of my best and most memorable games as a well fan have been on our Euro adventures,  Nancy and Dortmund in the UEFA Cup, Athens in the champions league, for example, so here's hoping we are planning another trip next summer.

I’d take us being lucky if that saw us lift a trophy.

St.Johnstone ‘got lucky’ twice last season and indeed have ‘got lucky’ three times since we last did in ‘91. Kilmarnock have managed to ‘get lucky’ twice since then too, as have Dundee United, whilst St.Mirren, Ross County, ICT, Livingston and Raith Rovers have all ‘got lucky’ in the last thirty years.

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1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

Wild.
 

I'd love us to get so lucky

I think you're taking Spiderpig's comment slightly out of context. Teams don't win cups solely through good luck, but any team winning a trophy has to have an element of good luck to do so. Likewise you don't win cups through having talent alone, nor character alone. 

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1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

Wild.
 

I'd love us to get so lucky

So would I and get to a final where we are not playing either of the ugly sisters,  4 finals since we won in 91 and The blue or green uglies in every one of them.  That's the luck StJ and all the others have had. 

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4 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

So would I and get to a final where we are not playing either of the ugly sisters,  4 finals since we won in 91 and The blue or green uglies in every one of them.  That's the luck StJ and all the others have had. 

We were more than capable of winning two cups in one year if we had been playing anyone else other than a pretty rampant Celtic.

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5 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

4 finals since we won in 91 and The blue or green uglies in every one of them.  That's the luck StJ and all the others have had. 

Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd and Raith Rovers have all beaten Rangers or Celtic in Finals since 91.

Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Inverness, Ross County and St Johnstone have all beaten them in Semi or Quarter Finals on the way to winning cups. 

I'm no seeing much luck there.

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14 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd and Raith Rovers have all beaten Rangers or Celtic in Finals since 91.

Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Inverness, Ross County and St Johnstone have all beaten them in Semi or Quarter Finals on the way to winning cups. 

I'm no seeing much luck there.

Correct. We on the other hand have failed to beat another top flight side in either Cup competition out with the 2017/18 season and Livingston in 2018 in the last ten years. That is a truly shocking statistic and nothing to do with luck. 

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I'm going to get along to FP on Tuesday night for the Dundee Utd game. Vaccine passports aren't a thing down here in England - do I need one to go to the football? If so what do I need?

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40 minutes ago, GazzyB said:

 

 

40 minutes ago, GazzyB said:

I'm going to get along to FP on Tuesday night for the Dundee Utd game. Vaccine passports aren't a thing down here in England - do I need one to go to the football? If so what do I need?

Vax passport only required if the crowd is over 10k and then its random checks only not the whole crowd, so it won't be required

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18 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

Correct. We on the other hand have failed to beat another top flight side in either Cup competition out with the 2017/18 season and Livingston in 2018 in the last ten years. That is a truly shocking statistic and nothing to do with luck. 

I had to go back and check that as it seemed wrong to me, but outwith the 2017/18 season you were right in that the past decade has been really pathetic in regards to cup runs, just one omission though we beat Hamilton in a SC tie in January 2018 when Scott McMann scored a lovely own goal.

However you look at the nature of some of the losses and it feels so much worse looking back, without going into too much detail but losing a QF to ten man Aberdeen then in a similiar time period then papped us out the Scottish Cup by them then days later in a league game a makeshift defence of Page/Cummins easily records a 1-0 win. Exits to Albion, Rangers and Morton down the leagues not to mention the late McManus show at Ibrox where he gifted them a passage to the next round. 

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The worst one was up at Pittodrie when Murphy scored a screamer. A goal up in the 93rd minute and Higdon and Humphrey just stood watching Considine run 30 yards with the ball to cross for McGinn to equalise. 

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We went out of one of the Cups three years in a row at home against Aberdeen under McCall. Two of the three of them were at a time when Aberdeen couldn’t buy a win against us in the League yet we simply failed to turn up in the Cup games.
 

The above mentioned game at Pittodrie when we were 1-0 up with seconds to go then conceded an equaliser resulted in a replay at FP which saw one of the most gutless, pathetic performances I’ve ever seen from us as we went down 2-1. We then played Aberdeen again two weeks later in the League on Boxing Day and absolutely pumped them 4-1 going on 8.

I’ve said it a million times before and I’ll keep saying it to those who like to paint Stuart McCall as some kind of legendary Motherwell manager, for all we had a great side which did well in the league, his cup record in the same time cast a major black mark over his tenure and I look back on it as a big missed opportunity for us to win a trophy. 

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The best Motherwell team I've ever seen, the early to mid ninties side didn't exactly do much in the cups either.

The McFadden team was our best chance.  Played Rangers off the park in the semi but still managed to lose 3-4 with a poor Dunfermline side waiting in the Final.  If we'd got through we would have won it.  No doubt whatsoever.

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4 hours ago, MJC_mkII said:

We went out of one of the Cups three years in a row at home against Aberdeen under McCall. Two of the three of them were at a time when Aberdeen couldn’t buy a win against us in the League yet we simply failed to turn up in the Cup games.
 

The above mentioned game at Pittodrie when we were 1-0 up with seconds to go then conceded an equaliser resulted in a replay at FP which saw one of the most gutless, pathetic performances I’ve ever seen from us as we went down 2-1. We then played Aberdeen again two weeks later in the League on Boxing Day and absolutely pumped them 4-1 going on 8.

I’ve said it a million times before and I’ll keep saying it to those who like to paint Stuart McCall as some kind of legendary Motherwell manager, for all we had a great side which did well in the league, his cup record in the same time cast a major black mark over his tenure and I look back on it as a big missed opportunity for us to win a trophy. 

Aberdeen knocked us out the Scottish Cup two times in the same year.

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15 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

The best Motherwell team I've ever seen, the early to mid ninties side didn't exactly do much in the cups either.

The McFadden team was our best chance.  Played Rangers off the park in the semi but still managed to lose 3-4 with a poor Dunfermline side waiting in the Final.  If we'd got through we would have won it.  No doubt whatsoever.

It was Dundee we would have played in the final that year, but your point still stands, we should have beaten Rangers in that Semi Final. We were 2-1 up and all over them and David Clarkson missed an absolute sitter to put us 3-1 up and it cost us big time. 
 

We’d certainly have fancied our chances against Dundee in the final.

13 hours ago, ropy said:

Aberdeen knocked us out the Scottish Cup two times in the same year.

2012 that’s correct, albeit in different seasons. The year later they knocked us out of the League Cup at Fir Park despite playing with ten men for about 77 minutes. That was another brilliant chance to win a Cup pissed away, as had we beaten Aberdeen we would have been into the Semis with St.Johnstone, Inverness and a Hearts side full of kids.

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