trafficlight Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 The Livi thread has gotten me thinking about the time 'Well were in adminstration. How deep a financial hole was the club in, and was there a serious threat to its existence ? This will be covered in Mr Johnstone's later work that I haven't gotten around to reading yet - sorry boss - so a bit of prior knowledge can't do any harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickoza Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I sat at the Press Conference and admit to being shit-scared for the future of our club. However, it quickly became clear that John Boyle, by waiving his claim to his stake of the money owed, saved the club. Aye, his attempts to get us the third force had some way of putting us in the shit, but to be fair, he did his big big-time to get the club back on a level footing. And he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggins Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Boyle has taken a lot of stick over the years... But he and the sale of McFadden saved us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'll try and keep it brief but the only danger to Motherwell was John Boyle. He came in and sanctioned spending beyond our means. Don't get me wrong when someone supposedly worth approx £100m came in with big plans and a willingness to splash the cash I was as excited as anyone. As a successful businessman I had high hopes that he was going to transform the club into the 3rd force he talked about. Not immediately but with more money and a good manager at the helm think we all hoped to see a good team on the park and with Boyle's business savy maybe the club could grow despite the restraints of its location so close to Rangers and Celtic. So we spent a lot of money and the success never quite came, Boyle started to cut back we sold some players but we were still losing money and we reached a point where Boyle wasn't willing to lose more and we called in the administrators. The vast majority of the money the club owed was to John Boyle, now it not that I not grateful but I do believe very much that a football club belongs to the fans and that any owner is only a custodian of something that belongs to us all so I think he had a moral if not legal obligation to wave any debts that he incurred. So how much danger were we in? I don't have access to Boyle's bank details but I suspect not very much unless Boyle himself was in danger of over extending his wider empire and losing it all. So we seem to be pretty much back to where we were pre Boyle, a small club that tries to live within its means. No real damage done from the misadventure other than to our reputation. That said I suspect there were some real losers in the whole affair but things could have been a lot worse if it wasn't for Falkirks stadium problems. Who knows, Boyle seems to be looking after the club in a fairly responsible fashion more or less now but the day to judge his legacy is for after he has moved on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trafficlight Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Interesting read that, Malky, thanks. So had 'Well been relegated the year they finished bottom, could that have potentially led to club going bust, or was that never really likely, as is the case with Livi ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 i don't think we ever in any serious danger of folding unless we got relegated. it was basically just an excuse to tear up the contracts of a bunch of overpaid wasters that pat nevin had employed and if we bumped some local businesses and the taxman along the way then that was just a bonus. 2002/03 was a total rollercoaster of a season. we had some incredible highs (h**s 1-0, tims 2-1, fhw 6-1, the cup run) but also a load of miserable afternoons where our young team got the run around. we obviously got lucky not getting relegated but it was a much happier time than the pish we had put up with for the two years previous. it's scary to think we might actually put out a less experienced team at perth than we put out on the first day at livi in 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Interesting read that, Malky, thanks. So had 'Well been relegated the year they finished bottom, could that have potentially led to club going bust, or was that never really likely, as is the case with Livi ? I couldn't say, I assume we could have cut our cloth to meet ends meet and survived. Seems quite a while ago now but it certainly would have been a serious blow. We were still in administration at the time if memory is right. If someone could confirm we didn't come out of admin until after the sale of McFadden in early part of the following season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underboyleheating Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I was obviously happy that we lived to fight another day but the same can't be said for the players released. There was a lot of anger towards JB they really felt they had been shafted. The payments they received from the administrator if I remember correctly were the bare minimum that's legally required by law. BBC's take on the story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I couldn't say, I assume we could have cut our cloth to meet ends meet and survived. Seems quite a while ago now but it certainly would have been a serious blow. We were still in administration at the time if memory is right. If someone could confirm we didn't come out of admin until after the sale of McFadden in early part of the following season? i don't think we actually came out of admin until after xmas that year, it was always happening though after the mcfadden sale a big what if.... if we'd went down would we have punted our assets straight away or would we took a run at the first with faddy, pearo, clarky, quinn, hammell and lasley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Yeah it wasn't a case of McFadden signing and out of admin we popped but it was directly linked. Suddenly we had a bit of cash to make some sort of offer and after period of time it all progressed through and we were back in relatively good health. Yeah there would have been something of a firesale, daresay we'd have gotten half what they were worth at best as well. So certainly we dodged a bullet, we might well still be down in the lower leagues if that had been the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shallow Dave Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Pat Nevin made me angry as he seemed to imply that Boyle had an infinate source of funds. I do think Pat talks a lot of sense with his BBC work now; however he was a complete tool in his last weeks at Motherwell. Also, didn't think he was a great player, especially for us. SD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Pat Nevin made me angry as he seemed to imply that Boyle had an infinate source of funds. I do think Pat talks a lot of sense with his BBC work now; however he was a complete tool in his last weeks at Motherwell. Also, didn't think he was a great player, especially for us. SD I half agree with you. I think Nevin did a piss poor job for us, getting value you money etc with his dealings and sure Boyle doesn't have infinate sources but I suspect Nevin was correct in saying that whilst it might have cost him another £3m or so he could have managed the situation without resorting to administration. Not saying after watching about £8m disappearing down the drain I'd be happy to see another £3m go myself regardless of how much I had left but could he have afforded us a softer landing without administration my guess is yes. But a guess is all it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trafficlight Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 So if I'm reading this right, Motherwell's position was never as critical as Livingston's is today ? Going to the wall was never a matter of days or weeks away ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Think it would be fair to say the only stories of oing to the wall were sensationalism from the press in the early days of admin. We were lucky that we stayed up. I think going down for one year would have done us the world of good as a title chasing team in Div1 I think would have got us more bums on seat and then the anticipation of the SPL again would have had the same. But there is no guarantee of that and Butcher got us the top six which was better than many dared dream so all worked out well. John Boyle took a punt. Its almost like me winning £1,000 at the races then deciding to put £600 on one that I like. If it works well then I earn a fortune, if it doesn't I'm still £400 up. He mis-managed the club for a bit and he took responsibility of it and got it back to stand alone strength. He has now learnt his business model was not viable and is getting another shot. There were a lot of people who lost their job though - granted they were in a better position than the staff at Livi and co are now as it was in a richer period and there were more jobs available. Sad times for those and some were bitter. But a bit like the banks they needed to get rid of some of the deadwood to make the business model feasible. The thing I like about Boyle is that he has learned and is not making the same mistakes again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 In the first days and weeks we really didn't know and it was pretty scary stuff. The first game after the announcement (and a few days before the job cuts) was down at Kilmarnock and it was really emotional for the fans and the players - you could tell by the way they lifted their performance AND celebrated the resounding victory. There were quite a few lumps in the throat in the, much larger than usual, travelling support when singing "We'll support you evermore" and "So please don't take my Motherwell away". The main differences between our situation and Livingston's has been the stance of the chairman and the actions of the fans. Yes, John Boyle got us into the mess but he also took the majority of the hit to get us out of it. Livingston's backers the first time around certainly had the resources and must have taken a hit but they appear to have sold it on (still with a debt burden) to people who may have resources but aren't willing to take the hit. Motherwell supporters came in out in numbers and got behind the Well Worth Saving campaign with collections and fundraising to try and help the club. Mr. Massone recently commented that the Livingston fans raised in £149 in a fundraising bid. Maybe I'm being harsh on them and they've given only up the ghost with their situation dragging on so long but they're not turning out in numbers and I think, with them being a relatively new club, they've been a fad for many people as long as their success lasted. While Motherwell don't have a huge support, there is a much wider support within the local community due to their long tradition. Much of our administration plight seems very fresh in the memory and I can only hope whoever is in charge in the future is never going to be as foolish again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Were we not in interim adminsitration rather that the full-blown version? I seem to remember that. Not sure how much of a difference that miht have made right enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'm no expert but is that not the proper term and it generally gets shortened to being in adminstration? Basically the administrator never has any intention of running the club forever (although quite a few were keen for Brian Jackson to stay) and only does so in the interim until a solution is found ie. new buyer, agreement with creditors or liquidation of assetts. Hence the term interim administration. As I say, I'm no expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 There was never any real danger of us going to the wall, mainly because of the fans. As long as they were still prepared to buy tickets then the club was still a going concern. I had a chat with Brian Jackson at the time and he said that, while we remained in the SPL we would have to cut back a great deal but the extra revenue from TV and OF matches meant we would be able to come out of administration in a reasonable space of time. His fear though, was relegation, as he said, It wouldn't have killed the club but the cutbacks would have been a whole lot harsher and it would have taken us a lot longer to come out of administration, and a great deal longer than that to get back into the SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'm no expert but is that not the proper term and it generally gets shortened to being in adminstration? Basically the administrator never has any intention of running the club forever (although quite a few were keen for Brian Jackson to stay) and only does so in the interim until a solution is found ie. new buyer, agreement with creditors or liquidation of assetts. Hence the term interim administration. As I say, I'm no expert. You could be right - certainly sounds logical. Pat Nevin advises me I should wager 8m quid you are more expert than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I think but not sure that the league wrote the current rules based on what happened with us. I don't think we were ever in great denger of disappearing but it was a bit of a worry for a wee while. Rumour going around Falkirk last night apparently was that Livi will withdraw from the league before saturday. Would be a shame to lose a Scottish club but in the current climate it is remarkable that only one has reached this stage, so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfc1886 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 We are still feeling the effects of administration. I am a shareholder and I got a letter from KPMG a couple of months ago with an update. It said that we had won the court case against John Spencer, but any money received would go into the administration pot to go to the creditors from that time. It also said that we had recently received another payment from the sale of Faddy (around £110k) and that money also goes into the admin pot, although it will be held back from the creditors to help pay the legal costs of the Spencer case. It seems that any debts from the periods before and during administration still stand, but can only be repaid using money outstanding from deals that were in that timeframe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trafficlight Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Anyone know how much the Well Worth Saving campaign raised and how the cash was used ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 No idea on amounts but I think it was used to buy gym equipment, training gear etc rather than provide funds which the club could have used to pay debts etc. The only thing I can say in Pat Nevin's favour was he scored that late winner against Hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 No idea on amounts but I think it was used to buy gym equipment, training gear etc rather than provide funds which the club could have used to pay debts etc. The only thing I can say in Pat Nevin's favour was he scored that late winner against Hearts. An absolute belter as well. From what I can remember ( I think) was that not a re-arrranged match to one that was abandoned at half time when we were 1-0 up. Nevin scored a curler into the bottom corner with almost the last kick of the ball. Great moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Bones Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 An absolute belter as well. From what I can remember ( I think) was that not a re-arrranged match to one that was abandoned at half time when we were 1-0 up. Nevin scored a curler into the bottom corner with almost the last kick of the ball. Great moment! I watched that in a boozer in Edinburgh. Had to leave fairly sharpish. It was in Stockbridge so not overly dangerous . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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