Toxteth O'Grady Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Just received my financial statement for the year ending May 2012. The club made a "significant" loss of £599,919 for the 2011/12 season, mainly due to No transfer fees Exiting the cups early No income from Europe Higher than expected bonus costs due to the excellent league performance Legal costs for Well Society formation The report states that the club is in a strong position relative to many others, but that "we cannot continue to run the risk of repeating losses of this size", and a full review of costs is underway. Any benefit gained by cutting costs will be offset by a reduction in income due to Rangers not being in the SPL. Apparently if we were to add an average of 1500 fans to each home gate, the loss would disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 That people is why we haven't signed any players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well_Jaggy Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I thought we had anticipated this loss last year when we reported the 500k profit? my understanding was that the profit last year would offset - well partially as it turns out - the expected loss for this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I should add that although this is pretty bad reading it's not as bad as it sounds. We predicted a loss last year when we recorded a profit of £540,000 and we kept that in reserve for this moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tottenmfc Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 My main question would be: are we now budgeting for European football and cup runs? And if so surely higher bonuses shouldn't be such a surprise? I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the general target is the quarters of each cup and last year we managed that in the Scottish and were one round short in the League Cup. The transfer fees and legal costs I understand but the rest seems a bit strange to me. We should maybe look at getting someone else to manage the budget because a poor league finish, early exits from the cups and nobody wanting to buy our players could mean we're finished based on this assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 My main question would be: are we now budgeting for European football and cup runs? And if so surely higher bonuses shouldn't be such a surprise? I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the general target is the quarters of each cup and last year we managed that in the Scottish and were one round short in the League Cup. The transfer fees and legal costs I understand but the rest seems a bit strange to me. We should maybe look at getting someone else to manage the budget because a poor league finish, early exits from the cups and nobody wanting to buy our players could mean we're finished based on this assessment. We budget to sell a player every season, finish in the top 6 and a decent cup run. I don't think we were expected to finish in 3rd place last season and to win as many games (win bonuses would be a factor). I think European games were mentioned because they were included in the previous season's accounts. I could be wrong though. Plus I don't think we reached the quarters of the Scottish last year. Did Aberdeen not knock us out of the round before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 We budget to sell a player every season, finish in the top 6 and a decent cup run. I don't think we were expected to finish in 3rd place last season and to win as many games (win bonuses would be a factor). I think European games were mentioned because they were included in the previous season's accounts. I could be wrong though. I know its general opinion but if we are budgeting expecting more than the 3 home Scottish cup games and the 1 home , 1 away we had in the league cup, then, as had been mentioned when it was revealed in the summer, its quite gross mismanagement of the budget from a board who claimed to be budgeting within our means not quite as bad but still quite incredible is the fact that the bonus structure pays out more than the rewards of success i.e a high placed league finish lets hope the people that made these mistakes correct them and quick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I know its general opinion but if we are budgeting expecting more than the 3 home Scottish cup games and the 1 home , 1 away we had in the league cup, then, as had been mentioned when it was revealed in the summer, its quite gross mismanagement of the budget from a board who claimed to be budgeting within our means not quite as bad but still quite incredible is the fact that the bonus structure pays out more than the rewards of success i.e a high placed league finish lets hope the people that made these mistakes correct them and quick I totally agree. My post was just outining what I though the club's position was. I think it's madness too though. A club our size should never be budgetting for a top 6 finish. A top 6 finish should be a bonus for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 but if we are budgeting expecting more than the 3 home Scottish cup games and the 1 home , 1 away we had in the league cup Whether a cup game is home or away doesn't really matter much since the gate money is split. Although I suppose the home club will make a bit more money through other sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 1500 fans to offset loss isn't too big an ask is it? They are out there as the cup final and European games showed. It's galling the crowds are so poor despite the relative success and league placings we've had over recent years. Although I do appreciate the many reasons people have for not being able to attend on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'd imagine this does not include this season so far? I'd have thought the 2 well attended European games, our split of a 40,000 odd gate at Ibrox and the money brought in for Jamie murphy should see us break even this year? Shame we didn't get a cup run, but we're well placed for a top 6 finish, with 2nd a realistic target, certainly European qualification would be our minimum target for the season given out position! Perhaps the structuring of bonuses needs addressed? Perhaps it should be based on overall performance targets, rather than individual games? Any bonus I've ever got has involved meeting several targets, personally and as a company.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 It doesn't include this season's games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Which reignites my anger at the absolutely appalling no show at ibrox There are loads of points about youth development (not as good). Getting guys int the 1st team. Constantly broadcasting our skint ness etc. however the above, very prettily I know, is what jumps out from the blurb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Last season our average home attendance was 5,496. This season it's 4,465. So if that's 1,000 less people on average per game at say £20 per person, i.e, £20,000 per home game. I make that £250,000 less over 12 home league matches. Of course it's not as simple as that because season ticket holders could have paid and then not come to games as well as other factors but I think the point is we are probably going to bring in less by a six figure sum in attendance money than the previous season. I suspect the fall is mainly due to no Rangers match (usually our highest attendance of the season) and falling away supports, especially the bigger clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Dundee Utd. Our home match against Dundee Utd attracted 3,941 fans. The Hearts match barely scrapped over the 4,000 mark. Our last home match against St. Johnstone was just over 3,500. If we don't attract more fans any cup success or high league placing is going to be negated by the steep decrease in league match income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 There isn't a hope in hell that attendances will increase when the clubs are hellbent on imposing a fuck up of a league structure on the fans. Attendances are more like to decrease further. This may be an argument for another thread but it all ties in together. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Last season our average home attendance was 5,496. This season it's 4,465. So if that's 1,000 less people on average per game at say £20 per person, i.e, £20,000 per home game. I make that £250,000 less over 12 home league matches. Of course it's not as simple as that because season ticket holders could have paid and then not come to games as well as other factors but I think the point is we are probably going to bring in less by a six figure sum in attendance money than the previous season. I suspect the fall is mainly due to no Rangers match (usually our highest attendance of the season) and falling away supports, especially the bigger clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Dundee Utd. Our home match against Dundee Utd attracted 3,941 fans. The Hearts match barely scrapped over the 4,000 mark. Our last home match against St. Johnstone was just over 3,500. If we don't attract more fans any cup success or high league placing is going to be negated by the steep decrease in league match income. If you replaced our attendance against Dundee this season (4318) with our last Rangers attendance (9063), that would increase our average gate for the 23 games this season by 206. So while there has been an impact from losing Rangers, it only accounts for 20% of the difference. That should be worrying the bean counters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Which reignites my anger at the absolutely appalling no show at ibrox There are loads of points about youth development (not as good). Getting guys int the 1st team. Don't forget the two lazy pricks that let considine run 40 yards with ball unoppossed and stopped us progressing in the scottish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 If you replaced our attendance against Dundee this season (4318) with our last Rangers attendance (9063), that would increase our average gate for the 23 games this season by 206. So while there has been an impact from losing Rangers, it only accounts for 20% of the difference. That should be worrying the bean counters. The thing is last seasons average attendance included two Rangers matches and two Celtic matches, while this seasons only includes one Celtic match. These games make a huge difference to our average attendance, especially as they are mostly paying away fans. We will get a second Celtic vist but we will miss out on about 20,000 from the Rangers matches, mostly comprised of paying Rangers fans, replaced with perhaps 8,000 from Dundee matches, mostly comprised of already paid Motherwell season ticket holders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 If you replaced our attendance against Dundee this season (4318) with our last Rangers attendance (9063), that would increase our average gate for the 23 games this season by 206. So while there has been an impact from losing Rangers, it only accounts for 20% of the difference. That should be worrying the bean counters. Surely 2 x 206 as we only play half our games at home! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Why the hell are we budgeting for a top six finish...that is suicidal financing. Common sense would dictate budgeting for 11th place and knockouts in the first round of the cups. That way anything else is a bonus. I can understand budgeting for selling a player each season but if you are selling arguably our best player every season for bloody pocket change then the mind boggles. Again I cannot rely on what we budget for as I can't see anything official and its all guesswork by the looks of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Why the hell are we budgeting for a top six finish...that is suicidal financing. Common sense would dictate budgeting for 11th place and knockouts in the first round of the cups. That way anything else is a bonus. I can understand budgeting for selling a player each season but if you are selling arguably our best player every season for bloody pocket change then the mind boggles. Again I cannot rely on what we budget for as I can't see anything official and its all guesswork by the looks of it. Leeann Dempster and Stuart McCall have told us on numerous occasions what we budget for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Leeann Dempster and Stuart McCall have told us on numerous occasions what we budget for. If true then that is really shocking to me. In a league as close as ours, outwith the old firm, budgeting for anything other than an 11th place finish and first round knockouts in the Cups is asking for trouble. There is no bloody way any club outwith the old firm can budget that way. We are in no position with our playing squad being so small and our small and dwindling fan base that we should be budgeting for so high in the league as I said that is financial suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Surely 2 x 206 as we only play half our games at home! 12/23 x 206, but aye, of course! Serves me right for skiving from work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephmc1886 Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Any links to them saying it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 If true then that is really shocking to me. In a league as close as ours, outwith the old firm, budgeting for anything other than an 11th place finish and first round knockouts in the Cups is asking for trouble. There is no bloody way any club outwith the old firm can budget that way. We are in no position with our playing squad being so small and our small and dwindling fan base that we should be budgeting for so high in the league as I said that is financial suicide. I thought Boyle used to say he always budgeted for 10th place and one cup quarter final. However, if the budget includes bonus payments for 3rd, compared to bonus payments for 11th offset against the prize money, I'd be interested to see the net difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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