Malky79 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 That could also be said of people on your side of the argument. Deaddogmans last post and some of somebody elses posts are pure mental well beyond realms of sane discussion. Iraqui's invited UK/US troops over and all of us arguing otherwise informed our opinions by listening to comedians? Or having an opinion contrary to supporting this season ticket initiative equals wanting to give them to muslim extremists and not applauding the troops yesterday was compared to wanting them dead. So no the delusion is very much weighted in certain specific quarters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Deaddogmans last post and some of somebody elses posts are pure mental well beyond realms of sane discussion. Iraqui's invited UK/US troops over and all of us arguing otherwise informed our opinions by listening to comedians? Or having an opinion contrary to supporting this season ticket initiative equals wanting to give them to muslim extremists and not applauding the troops yesterday was compared to wanting them dead. So no the delusion is very much weighted in certain specific quarters. This is directed at Wellgirl too. Remember I am anti Iraq war but would you not say some of Chris' comments about soldiers are deluded? I would do some multi quoting but I don't know how to! Afterall I am a thick c**t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Stop being lazy. Don't make Malky do all the legwork! Which posts are you referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 An absolutely appalling post which has brought shame to this site. If that is how low things have sunk then I want no part of it. What part of it do you disagree with? That the British army hasn't killed innocent civilians? That the wars weren't based on lies and propaganda? That the level of security in the United Kingdom is denuded rather than enhanced by our foreign policy? That people shouldn't have the freedom to either form their own opinions or decide on their own actions? I applauded the soldiers yesterday but I was always and will always be against the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan is more about oil pipelines and propping up Pakistan than British security. What worries me most about this whole thing isn't so much giving away free season tickets, more that people are losing sight of the difference between respecting the army and venerating the army. We are more and more being pushed towards the latter and anyone who know anything about history knows that is the wrong way for a society to go - in fact most British war dead, including many members of my own family, died in the battle to stop those sort of societies. I feel genuinely sorry for the military who have been put in this position by shameful people; politicians, media moguls and others, who exploit them and use them as a political football to achieve their own agendas. Once freedom of speech goes we are in a very sorry position, so while I applauded yesterday and respect the tough conditions many soldiers find themselves in, its actually completely necessary to debate and oppose the veneration of the army, if we don't then we slip further down the slope towards authoritarian government. Preserving free speech and allowing rival opinions, even extreme ones, does more to maintain the survival of our freedom than any army - without it the military quickly become oppressors rather than protectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 What part of it do you disagree with? That the British army hasn't killed innocent civilians? That the wars weren't based on lies and propaganda? That the level of security in the United Kingdom is denuded rather than enhanced by our foreign policy? That people shouldn't have the freedom to either form their own opinions or decide on their own actions? I applauded the soldiers yesterday but I was always and will always be against the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan is more about oil pipelines and propping up Pakistan than British security. What worries me most about this whole thing isn't so much giving away free season tickets, more that people are losing sight of the difference between respecting the army and venerating the army. We are more and more being pushed towards the latter and anyone who know anything about history knows that is the wrong way for a society to go - in fact most British war dead, including many members of my own family, died in the battle to stop those sort of societies. I feel genuinely sorry for the military who have been put in this position by shameful people; politicians, media moguls and others, who exploit them and use them as a political football to achieve their own agendas. Once freedom of speech goes we are in a very sorry position, so while I applauded yesterday and respect the tough conditions many soldiers find themselves in, its actually completely necessary to debate and oppose the veneration of the army, if we don't then we slip further down the slope towards authoritarian government. Preserving free speech and allowing rival opinions, even extreme ones, does more to maintain the survival of our freedom than any army - without it the military quickly become oppressors rather than protectors. Far and away most elequent post on this thread and whilst I didn't applaud yesterday still agree with 100%. For all I've said against them I still have some sympathy for anyone in a position where they could get maimed or killed regardless of how they ended up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEWELL Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I was applauding our troops at half time and it was marvellous to see them with Motherwell scarves on. I dont agree with them being in Afghanistan but i support them 100%. It was afine gesture to give them free season tickets. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rightdodgyman Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 What worries me most about this whole thing isn't so much giving away free season tickets, more that people are losing sight of the difference between respecting the army and venerating the army. We are more and more being pushed towards the latter and anyone who know anything about history knows that is the wrong way for a society to go - in fact most British war dead, including many members of my own family, died in the battle to stop those sort of societies. I feel genuinely sorry for the military who have been put in this position by shameful people; politicians, media moguls and others, who exploit them and use them as a political football to achieve their own agendas. Spot on. The whole "hero" propaganda is getting embarrassing. Wheeling them out at every opportunity to deflect away the criticism aimed at those who sent them over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmjay Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 What part of it do you disagree with? That the British army hasn't killed innocent civilians? That the wars weren't based on lies and propaganda? That the level of security in the United Kingdom is denuded rather than enhanced by our foreign policy? That people shouldn't have the freedom to either form their own opinions or decide on their own actions? I applauded the soldiers yesterday but I was always and will always be against the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan is more about oil pipelines and propping up Pakistan than British security. What worries me most about this whole thing isn't so much giving away free season tickets, more that people are losing sight of the difference between respecting the army and venerating the army. We are more and more being pushed towards the latter and anyone who know anything about history knows that is the wrong way for a society to go - in fact most British war dead, including many members of my own family, died in the battle to stop those sort of societies. I feel genuinely sorry for the military who have been put in this position by shameful people; politicians, media moguls and others, who exploit them and use them as a political football to achieve their own agendas. Once freedom of speech goes we are in a very sorry position, so while I applauded yesterday and respect the tough conditions many soldiers find themselves in, its actually completely necessary to debate and oppose the veneration of the army, if we don't then we slip further down the slope towards authoritarian government. Preserving free speech and allowing rival opinions, even extreme ones, does more to maintain the survival of our freedom than any army - without it the military quickly become oppressors rather than protectors. I wish I'd written this post. I agree with everything that Ya Bezzer wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superwell87 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I was applauding our troops at half time and it was marvellous to see them with Motherwell scarves on. I dont agree with them being in Afghanistan but i support them 100%. It was afine gesture to give them free season tickets. .+1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 The problem with this topic , much the same as the steelmenonline topic, is that there are too many juvenile folk with infantile mentalities ( you know who you are) and too many adults with the same juve/infantile outlooks ( you know who you are too ). You all think that it is jolly good fun to hurl abuse and lies at decent folks which is bad enough but when it comes to showing support for our own armed forces you shun them! Then you all listen to pop stars who want to save the world and "comedians" who use anything to raise a laugh then fall behind the words of the growling minority and shout off about an illegal war, there was no "illegal war" in Iraq.Our troops were over there on a policing mission to remove a tyrant and his corrupt government . We were never at "war " with the Iraqis ,they invited us and welcomed us into their country to help them. Tha casualties that we received were down to insurgents from the terrorist cells and Iraqi deaths were down to the infighting between the differing muslim factions fighting for power,which has been happening for years but we don't hear about it because we're not there! Today's headlines, hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
something else Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 No I was running up and down the east stand in full morris dancing costume clacking wood in protest! Yeah make a joke about a Motherwell fan being killed in Iraq, very funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Has anyone answered what two countries our armed forces are currently fucking up? I think the fact they're building infrastructure in Cumbria so two parts of the same town can be connected can't be seen as "fucking up" so where are these two countries? Going through my list again I cannot find them. Malky, you like to use it but what has the fact the British Government declaring an "illegal" war got to do with our Armed Forces? They don't get to decide and the ones I spoke to were not too happy about being sent there but they did it because they agreed to go (actually technically they didn't by signing up since it was technically the first offensive war in such a long time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Yeah make a joke about a Motherwell fan being killed in Iraq, very funny. Out from under your rock I see. Clearly not making a joke, except to point out the ridiculous views held by you and a few others on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
something else Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Clearly not making a joke, except to point out the ridiculous views held by you and a few others on this thread. Yeah cos your views are anything but ridiculous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spv Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Yeah make a joke about a Motherwell fan being killed in Iraq, very funny. You are now just simply being ridiculous and quite outrageously tedious and boring. Do you simply live to feel offended? there was clearly no joke stated or intended. Rather an attempt to demonstrate the complete madness of some of your posts. Please read back what you have so far stated. Do you honestly believe that by not "supporting" the "war" in Iraq and the part played by the Uk that by default you then are a) a supporter of Islamic fundamentalism b) take some kind of pleasure in people of any nation being killed c) and d) everyone who doesn't hold your stance is either a bawbag or a scrotum holder You do appear to have rather an unhealthy obsession and maybe time you took yourself off to somewhere nice and quiet and reflect on the state of your own psyche and if required consult with the relevant experts in an attempt to get to the root of your problems and hopefully find some answers to why you come across as being quite such a troubled individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaddogman Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Today's headlines, hmmm. There was no Illegal war against Iraq! Show me anywhere it that "Independent" report that we were at war with the people of Iraq, or indeed Iraq! Nobody is denying that the government got it wrong regarding intelligence reports nor the fact that they followed the Americans into Iraq along with several other United Nations countries but we never ever declared war on Iraq or its peoples , the only war declared was on terror! Sadly a few Iraqis died whilst the bombing and shelling took place and this is deeply regrettable but the objective was set and achieved, the removal of Saddam Hussein, his corrupt government and police force. A new democracy was put in place, a new Police force was trained up and a new infrastructure set, all whilst the terrorist insurgents set about bombing the innocent Iraqis and our forces, as well as them having to deal with the muslim factions all fighting each other to gain control. To this effect, our troops did excellently. Anyway I wouldn't really put any faith into what the " Independent" report or the Guardian for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Sadly a few Iraqis died whilst the bombing and shelling took place and this is deeply regrettable but the objective was set and achieved, the removal of Saddam Hussein, his corrupt government and police force. A new democracy was put in place, a new Police force was trained up and a new infrastructure set, all whilst the terrorist insurgents set about bombing the innocent Iraqis and our forces, as well as them having to deal with the muslim factions all fighting each other to gain control. To this effect, our troops did excellently. i'm sure the half a million dead iraqis are delighted with how things worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 There was no Illegal war against Iraq! Show me anywhere it that "Independent" report that we were at war with the people of Iraq, or indeed Iraq! Nobody is denying that the government got it wrong regarding intelligence reports nor the fact that they followed the Americans into Iraq along with several other United Nations countries but we never ever declared war on Iraq or its peoples , the only war declared was on terror! Sadly a few Iraqis died whilst the bombing and shelling took place and this is deeply regrettable but the objective was set and achieved, the removal of Saddam Hussein, his corrupt government and police force. A new democracy was put in place, a new Police force was trained up and a new infrastructure set, all whilst the terrorist insurgents set about bombing the innocent Iraqis and our forces, as well as them having to deal with the muslim factions all fighting each other to gain control. To this effect, our troops did excellently. Anyway I wouldn't really put any faith into what the " Independent" report or the Guardian for that matter. That was never the objective of the war at all. The war was about ridding Iraq of its WMD. Have they actually found any yet? So in my eyes the objective has failled. In fact George W "prick" Bush said in numerous occasions that as long as Saddam showed that his weapons were destroyed then he could remain in power which is a fact. Also under UN law it states that a country can't declare war on another for the objective of regime change. Therefore you have defeated your own argument. If that were the case they would have removed Mugabe years ago. And for what it is worth I totally agree with you about the troops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk2205 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I think the insinuation that if you join the army your some blood thirsty right wing nutcase is off the mark. War in Iraq...Afghanistan - Stupid and we shouldnt be there. Troops - Brave. Hero's. 30 free season tickets? Probably more deserving than some of the folk getting freebie tickets the now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 I think the insinuation that if you join the army your some blood thirsty right wing nutcase is off the mark. War in Iraq...Afghanistan - Stupid and we shouldnt be there. Troops - Brave. Hero's. 30 free season tickets? Probably more deserving than some of the folk getting freebie tickets the now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaddogman Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 That was never the objective of the war at all. The war was about ridding Iraq of its WMD. Have they actually found any yet? So in my eyes the objective has failled. In fact George W "prick" Bush said in numerous occasions that as long as Saddam showed that his weapons were destroyed then he could remain in power which is a fact. Also under UN law it states that a country can't declare war on another for the objective of regime change. Therefore you have defeated your own argument. If that were the case they would have removed Mugabe years ago. And for what it is worth I totally agree with you about the troops. The facts can be used to show a lot, there was no war declared against Iraq or it's regime but the minority still insist it was a war! WMD ... just because they haven't found the warheads doesn't mean they don't exist, they found the delivery methods and already know the Saddam has used chemical warfare on the Kurdish people of North Iraq again the only war declared was on terror Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 The facts can be used to show a lot, there was no war declared against Iraq or it's regime but the minority still insist it was a war! you better get yourself down to london tomorrow to tell the chillcot inquiry there wasn't actually a war and they're wasting their time, i'm sure they'll be relieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 The facts can be used to show a lot, there was no war declared against Iraq or it's regime but the minority still insist it was a war! WMD ... just because they haven't found the warheads doesn't mean they don't exist, they found the delivery methods and already know the Saddam has used chemical warfare on the Kurdish people of North Iraq again the only war declared was on terror Yes he did gas the Kurds and who armed him? The USA and both Reagans and Bush Snrs administrations. They armed Iraq during it's war with Iran who they also armed! And look at this link if you think this is not war then you are as someone has said deluded and very naive. Are you Comical Ali in disguise? And If they still haven't found the weapons then they have failed in their objectives. How long does it take they have been there nearly 7 years. Edit: Even Bush disagrees with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augh! Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 There was no Illegal war against Iraq! Show me anywhere it that "Independent" report that we were at war with the people of Iraq, or indeed Iraq! Nobody is denying that the government got it wrong regarding intelligence reports nor the fact that they followed the Americans into Iraq along with several other United Nations countries but we never ever declared war on Iraq or its peoples , the only war declared was on terror! Sadly a few Iraqis died whilst the bombing and shelling took place and this is deeply regrettable but the objective was set and achieved, the removal of Saddam Hussein, his corrupt government and police force. A new democracy was put in place, a new Police force was trained up and a new infrastructure set, all whilst the terrorist insurgents set about bombing the innocent Iraqis and our forces, as well as them having to deal with the muslim factions all fighting each other to gain control. To this effect, our troops did excellently. Anyway I wouldn't really put any faith into what the " Independent" report or the Guardian for that matter. Legality of a war is hard to ascertain. The inquiry going on just now is more about whether or not the government lied to parliament about the case for war, but even if it found the government had lied then that in itself would not make it an illegal war. What could would be if it were to be established that the governments of the aggressor nations (this inquiry granted will only be looking at the UK) did not do enough before the invasion to protect civilians in Iraq. This would contravene the Geneva Convention and in terms of what little actually makes up international law, this could make the invasion of Iraq "illegal." Even then it could take action by the ICJ to actually say if anyone in the UK government acted illegally. This is besides the point however. On the matter of whether or not the club should let in members of the armed forces in for free, give them season tickets, or some other offer I've sort of changed my position. Originally I was against this because although they do a difficult job so do plenty of other people and the ticket pricing structure of a football club shouldn't be based on how valuable someone thinks the fans job happens to be. Should prices be lowered for those in the Army, nurses and firemen but put up for bankers, civil servants and sociology students? These people are members of our society just as much as everyone else, so why should they get special treatment. It was a view I held and I can respect anyone who does hold this view now. But we do offers for school children (or I think we do, I don't pay as much attention to these things as I did when I was at school ), we run a work programme for people coming out of prisons, the club get involved in various things in the town - everytime I skim that Extra paper there always seems to be a couple of Motherwell players pictured alongside some local group doing whatever, they let OAPs and tax-dodgers students like me in for less. Giving something such as concessions or some free season tickets to people in the army or who have been in the army isn't special treatment, it's parity. Whatever you think of the wars, the country as a whole will have to rethink how they perceive war veterans as a result of them. Before they were old people who had fought during a time of total war which for many young people like me was decades before my birth and honestly quite distant as a result. Now though we have large numbers of people who have been left scarred for life as a result of war who are in their twenties and their teens. The debate over these wars, which I was and am against, will have long passed and we as a society will have large numbers of people who will always live with the result of it, and its something we have to get used to. Like one of the posters above said however, there has to be a line draw between respect and veneration of soldiers. The Sun newspaper in particular seems to attack people it is against for political reasons as being against "our boys". Doing so is itself disrespectful because it is the Sun newspapers politicising these people. They have established a situation where anyone who is against these wars, or any future wars as being against 'our troops', and it deadens the debate which has to exist as people don't want to be attacked for this. I don't mind if people didn't want to applaud at half time there on Saturday, in fact I think that it is healthy for there to be those who have their political opinions which stopped them from doing so. It would be wrong for anyone to try and pressure them into following the crowd and to clap when they didn't want to because these are "our boys." TLDR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 The facts can be used to show a lot, there was no war declared against Iraq or it's regime but the minority still insist it was a war! WMD ... just because they haven't found the warheads doesn't mean they don't exist, they found the delivery methods and already know the Saddam has used chemical warfare on the Kurdish people of North Iraq again the only war declared was on terror I'm thinking of declaring a war on obtuseness and occupying your house, I suspect I have as much chance of finding WMD in there as were found in Iraq when no one went to war there! * *Just to add that like earlier on any attempts at humour were made at the expense of the poster and not any war dead as I'd hope was patently obvious.** **A different poster refering to in that wee postscript DDman I don't want you to think that was part was a dig at yourself. Good night all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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