El Grew Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Jim Gannon is spot on with his obervations on Scottish referees. Take last week at Easter Road. Hibs committed 22 fouls and had 1 player booked. We committed 4 fouls and had 3 players booked. Anyone looking at these stats would be forced to conclude that we are a team of cluggers. The referee was Ian Brines who is amongst the worst referees I've ever seen and yet he has been allowed to continue to handle Grade 1 games rather than get sent to the 3rd division. Jim Gannon is being pilloried by all parts of the media because he has had the audacity to speak publicly about something that nearly all football fans agree with him on - that the state of our referees is shocking. Personally, I think it's a case of 'who is the English upstart coming here and telling us how bad our referees are' by the small minded, old-firm biased, in-bred media. I listened to Tam Cowan on radio Scotland at lunchtime today defending referees and berating Jim Gannon for his views and said he should "keep his trap shut". I don't know who he thinks he is bit its him that needs to keep his trap shut as its nothing but hot air and wind that comes out of it when he speaks. The next time he says something sensible will be the first time. Fat arse Jim Traynor then comes on and reduces the debate to the level of making it personal - "Who does Jim Gannon think he is? He only managed Stockport County so what does he know about anything?" Then the two-faced wee turd goes on to criticise referees for exactly the same things Gannon has been trying to get the SFA to look into. He states that referees might be inclined to referee Motherwell games with a view to 'punishing' Gannon for his outbursts. Ah, so he admits our referees might not be so unbiased after all. Just remember the treatment that Craig Levein had to suffer for also having the temerity to criticise two of the most biased instances of refereeing last season when against Rangers in the cup and then in the SPL, Dundee Utd were shamefully treated by Mike McCurry and Kenny 'Bluenose' Clarke (both of whom thankfully are no longer in employment at the SFA). Levein suffered the same kind of media tirades and abuse as Gannon is getting now. He even defied the SFA and refused to pay a £5K fine 'for bringing the game into disrepute'. Jim Gannon has my full support in his criticism of our referees because if nobody raises the issue then the standards will continue to fall. For far too long referees have been allowed to get away with ridiculous performances with no action being taken. Stick in Jim the majority of fans are behind you on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange county dosser Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 pretty much spot on there El Grew !!! +1 in Gannons camp here ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 last week the hibs players are smart enough to realise that they can commit 3 or 4 wee niggly fouls each without getting booked. if we had any nous in our team we'd do the same back, watch their first goal reynolds could easily check the hibs boy in their half and take his first booking of the season. instead we play fair and lose a vital goal. i'd be happy if the refs cut down on these wee fouls but the consenus opinion in the country seems to be that fouls like gary mcdonald's against rangers or bauben's second yellow against us shouldn't be cautions. we don't commit many fouls so obviously we'd like refs to crack down on wee things however levien, hughes, jeffries, smith and llaslo seem to be lobbying the other way and want their players to be allowed to commit 4 wee fouls without any punishment. when you're on the park you're not playing to the fifa rules of football you're playing to the rules of the referee. smart players figure out early on what they can and can't do and play the game accordingly to their own advantage. at hibs we should have been hitting them early in midfield like they did to us rather than standing off or we should have stiffened zemmana or riordan and forced the ref to bring his cards out. instead we were constantly being victims, getting fouled, not reacting and hibs dominated the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deJaya Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 whilst i do feel a wee bit edgy about the amount of time gannon spends fighting battles with the press / spl / sfa etc .. i pretty much think you're spot on El Grew. gannon has my backing on this out of interest .. the discipline tables make interesting reading right now: Team Yellow Cards Motherwell 18 Celtic 22 Hamilton 23 Kilmarnock 23 St Johnstone 23 St Mirren 23 Dundee Utd 26 Rangers 27 Falkirk 28 Hearts 29 Hibernian 30 Aberdeen 32 Team Red Cards Dundee Utd 6 Hearts 5 Aberdeen 5 Rangers 3 St Mirren 3 Kilmarnock 1 Hibernian 1 Celtic 1 Hamilton 1 Motherwell 0 St Johnstone 0 Falkirk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 i can't find an updated table but dundee united have commited more than 100 more fouls than we have in less games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanr Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Great post El Grew and I can only echo your thoughts. Traynor's view was along the lines of "Jim Gannon is out of order, who is he to say this about our referee's" whilst in the same breath "we all know something's been needing done about our referee's standards for a long time". Cock of the highest order who can't accept that someone has come into Scottish football with little prior knowledge of it and has summed it up for what it is - a complete farce that is in need of some radical changes. Okay, we haven't heard his views on the SFA, the league structure, grassroots football, the national team etc. but what he has now experienced: the shoddy refereeing and piss poor 'journalism' are things he has merely had the audacity to criticize. The only real shame here is that he is pissing against the wind and things will not change. Unfortunately for the good of our game, the words of Jim Traynor, Hugh Keevins, Chick Young (need I list more?) will be the opinions that are heard in our sham of a footballing culture after Jim Gannon gas left the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 is there anyone who can tell me in any detail what should be done about about refereeing standards in scotland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 is there anyone who can tell me in any detail what should be done about about refereeing standards in scotland? Start holding refs accountable and send them doon to the third division for serious blunders. I'm no talking about 50 50 decisions am talking about blatant errors. Shutting up and being a pussy about it isn't the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Start holding refs accountable and send them doon to the third division for serious blunders. I'm no talking about 50 50 decisions am talking about blatant errors. Shutting up and being a pussy about it isn't the answer. 1. being sent to the third divsion isn't a punishment, elite refs officiate lower league games all the time. 2. we already have managers constantly complaining about inexperienced refs handling their games this will only increase that. 3. what makes you think that a top ref being demoted for one who is considered to be at a lower grade is going to result in an improvement. chirs kamara described pro ref mark clattenburg as having a nightmare today. english fitba pays their refs more than we pay our players and they still can't get it right. you say be accountable, what does that mean? does anyone actually believe hugh dallas or the individual refs want to make mistakes on a saturday and end up being castigated in the papers on tv and online? referees are far from perfect but so are players, managers and fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon_da_well Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 is there anyone who can tell me in any detail what should be done about about refereeing standards in scotland? Train then better, for longer. Raise the standards in passing whatever tests they have to to become a grade 1 official. Repremand them for blatent errors. There's a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Train then better, for longer. Raise the standards in passing whatever tests they have to to become a grade 1 official. Repremand them for blatent errors. There's a start. 1. england has pro refs and the standard isn't a great deal better. 2. even if you raise the pass level it'll still be the same people passing. 3. reprimand how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 1. being sent to the third divsion isn't a punishment, elite refs officiate lower league games all the time. 2. we already have managers constantly complaining about inexperienced refs handling their games this will only increase that. 3. what makes you think that a top ref being demoted for one who is considered to be at a lower grade is going to result in an improvement. chirs kamara described pro ref mark clattenburg as having a nightmare today. english fitba pays their refs more than we pay our players and they still can't get it right. you say be accountable, what does that mean? does anyone actually believe hugh dallas or the individual refs want to make mistakes on a saturday and end up being castigated in the papers on tv and online? referees are far from perfect but so are players, managers and fans. 1. Maybe it should be. You ref games based on performance and what division you referee in determines your pay. 2. If the refs were competent there would be no complaints 3. it will result in improvement. I know where I would rather referee so I would buck my ideas up. English refs don't get it right but they are allowed to come out and explain their decisions. Refs are wrapped in cotton wool and receive no fines where as managers get charged for expressing their right to free speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon_da_well Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 1. england has pro refs and the standard isn't a great deal better. 2. even if you raise the pass level it'll still be the same people passing. 3. reprimand how? 1. Yes, not a great deal better, but it IS better. That would be a start. 2. How do you work that one out? Some of the diddys ne have today might not have passed with stricter or more testing examinations. 3. Perhaps a dock in wages? Or a ban. Or sent back to sit the exams again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 1. Yes, not a great deal better, but it IS better. That would be a start. 2. How do you work that one out? Some of the diddys ne have today might not have passed with stricter or more testing examinations. 3. Perhaps a dock in wages? Or a ban. Or sent back to sit the exams again. There is no point reasoning with Hugh. He prefers us to just shut up and accept the useless incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 1. Yes, not a great deal better, but it IS better. That would be a start. 2. How do you work that one out? Some of the diddys ne have today might not have passed with stricter or more testing examinations. 3. Perhaps a dock in wages? Or a ban. Or sent back to sit the exams again. 1. we probably disagree in the difference in quality but if the epl with near infinite resources and ten times the population with only 3.5xs the games can't solve every problem what chance do we have. 2. we need a certain amount of refs. changing how exams are graded isn't going to effect which refs are most capable of handling spl matches. it'll be the same people with the highest grades they'll just score lower in the tests. 3. i don't see how that would improve standards. it just heaps more pressure on the refs and undermines them. netherton - i honestly don't believe refs are incompetent. before the dundee united game i can't remember a single thread on here complaining about refs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 netherton - i honestly don't believe refs are incompetent. before the dundee united game i can't remember a single thread on here complaining about refs. I don't think the refs have been that bad towards us but that doesn't make them any less incompetent. I have been screaming for years. Celtic were denied a clear penalty today when there was a clear handball and the ref was right there and had a great view of it. Although I am happy it wasn't given I would be a hypocrite not to mention it as a blatant error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I don't think the refs have been that bad towards us but that doesn't make them any less incompetent. I have been screaming for years. Celtic were denied a clear penalty today when there was a clear handball and the ref was right there and had a great view of it. Although I am happy it wasn't given I would be a hypocrite not to mention it as a blatant error. i didn't think that was a pen. it wasn't deliberate and jennings hands were down around his body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 i didn't think that was a pen. it wasn't deliberate and jennings hands were down around his body. It may not have been different but it was clearly hand to ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon_da_well Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 1. we probably disagree in the difference in quality but if the epl with near infinite resources and ten times the population with only 3.5xs the games can't solve every problem what chance do we have. 2. we need a certain amount of refs. changing how exams are graded isn't going to effect which refs are most capable of handling spl matches. it'll be the same people with the highest grades they'll just score lower in the tests. 3. i don't see how that would improve standards. it just heaps more pressure on the refs and undermines them. netherton - i honestly don't believe refs are incompetent. before the dundee united game i can't remember a single thread on here complaining about refs. 1. I doubt we do, it's not much better but it certainly is noticably better. I find in Scotland I notice the ref's input a lot more than I do in English games 2. I see your point. Scottish refs are poor and whatever can be done to solve that, even if it only has a slim chance of success, is certainly worth trying. 3. How does it undermine then? Maybe a better way would be to pay them based on performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trafficlight Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I recall a Stockport fan who posted on the forum when Gannon was appointed, telling you to be prepared for run ins with the authorities and the media, and Jim hasn't disappointed . I think he's a breath of fresh air; an intelligent man who expresses himself well and is straight down the line. A big improvement on the inane comments of so many others. I don't think he tries to be controversial for its own sake or to draw attention to himself, rather he isn't afraid to speak his mind. Get 'em telt, Jim ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelot Groomin' Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 gies fucking piece.reffees play a part in a game.if the games shite its doon to the shite fitba players.this forum (like most of scottish fitba) is a fuckin loose wimmin/jermy kyle moan tampon fest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 gies fucking piece.reffees play a part in a game.if the games shite its doon to the shite fitba players.this forum (like most of scottish fitba) is a fuckin loose wimmin/jermy kyle moan tampon fest x 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 It may not have been different but it was clearly hand to ball. The handball is 50-50, have seen them given tho it would have been harsh, his hands were by his side and he was a yard away from the guy who hit the ball so had no chance to do anything about it, as I said It wasnt a pen but ive seen them given (usually a guarantee pen for the old firm!), the foul on Samaras? in the first half was about as clear as your gonna get for a pen! that was a shocking decision. Something needs to be done tho, its been getting worse for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 What should be done with referees? My opinions are: 1. Pick your ten most experienced referees and they do all SPL games. Half way through the season they are graded and if they have not met the standard they are demoted and the top performers from the next group move up. This would mean referees such as Alan Muir would not be in the SPL as early in their career and can make their mistakes at a lower level. Think back three years and every time we saw we were getting Charlie Richmond and everyone though Aw shite he's murder. But look at him today - he has developed into, in my opinion, the best Scotland has. Another couple of years at a lower level and some of the nightmares he had in the SPL could have happened out of the media spotlight. Alan Muir will probably become a decent SPL ref in time but the reputational damage from our game v United will stick to him for a while which can only hinder him. 2. Team up refs and assistants. Its unreal that the assistants are working with different referees every week. Let them build up a working relationship and develop as a team. Its the same as a team's players. Look at Aston Villa - same team playing same formation every week. And they are winning every week. Yet Liverpool with better players who are chopping and changing are not winning as often. The same consistency applies to the refs. 3. On the feedback issue Gannon is right. The SFA ref observer is a valuable tool but those who are being affected by the decisions they make should have an impact too. A four or five question sheet about the officials could be used to improve them. 4. They should include a referees course on the manager's coaching badges to improve an understanding of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelot Groomin' Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 there must be a scientific study somwhere on this.actual paragraphs typed oot like a sundaypost. Its a fukn sport.if yer bored....get cloud bustin baby.mfc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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