Goggles & Flippers

As sense in OTF's post. Best thing for fan ownership is impending doom, best of the rest for 3 seasons straight unfortunately isn't a motivator.

I think a professional football player has to also hold his hands up and say "aye, but I'm a wee bit culpable too"

Well lets look at the positives, Billy Davies .... been around the block, done pretty well some places, average to poor elsewhere, there's a lot of that though. Maybe he could bring best mate Tommy Sheridan with him to fill the vacant Media role, Tommy does like a wee chat and can spin things positively. Burrows sounds like Dempster? .... Did he say he fancied birds? If so .... identical. As for Kenny Black, his change in formation to combat what Utd put up tonight maybe shows he was overruled by McCall, maybe we are being a little unfair of him because he was part of the malaise of the past few months.

No bounce that always happens after a managerial departure? Not a formation change then? While a lot of negative criticism has been leveled at Black, mostly due to taint by association, are we being unfair? I have read comments where people said if there was a result and it would be disastrous, would it? If so, how come? Adapting effectively tonight to Dundee Utd's threats with a degree of coherence makes me wonder if he was overruled regularly?

Agree completely with that, its as if they have no desire to better themselves. John Collins wanted to implement a 9-5 culture, diet, tactics, fitness and conditioning. Scottish pro's want to go to Nando's, play snooker and hit Willie Hill's sadly. Kinda why I'm happy one of the countries best prospects in Ryan Gauld has got out of it here and is off to Portugal. I think young guys would be a little receptive but the older guys would get annoyed it eats into their FIFA time.

Jesus .... Fat Sally, McNamara, Hughes and Stubbs all at 33-1, if I bet they won't get the job, will they offer 1-33 ON? If so, house is going on it.

I think Tom Boyd would rather pull on that metal thing the albino monk in The Da Vinci code wore under his habit than the C&A again. Ian Cathro .... interesting one there - exposure to the Spanish market, if leaves on good terms maybe blood a lot of their young players on loan deals (I"m sure Gattuso doesn't regret his time in Scotland and what it did for his career), continental work ethic and fitness regime, could have legs. JFH ..... Does he still have star power to attract people? Brought up in the Dutch system and it's proven to work well.

Derek Weir announced Peter Grant as the new Motherwell manager today, "We've decided that Rangers have had it way too easy since January 2011 when Stuart was appointed. We as a club only pander to the whims of the Old Firm and with it looking like Rangers getting promotion we thought Peter would be the perfect character to take us to Parkhead and lie down for a few seasons, of course we asked Peter Lawwell for his permission and have to get over the issue of the 11 players on the park being unprofessional and going along with his wishes, but nothing a waggy finger and a stern talking to won't will sort out............"

I agree, I hope he does get his chance. However don't be naive to the reason he jumped from obscurity to the SPFL runners up can only be down to his family association with SMcC and he's got his P45.

I'm inclined to agree with this. I suspect those who will make the decision recognise that at our core and to ensure sustainability we have to buy cheap or produce our own and sell high. We've successfully not done that while others around us have. Accies, Dundee Utd, etc. have repeatedly actioned astute bits of scouting and airtight contracts and won't be unnoticed by the board. Therefore I suspect the successor will either bank of their personal drawing power or have extensive knowledge in how to foster/where to source, cheap players that have potential. Also if they can demonstrate how they've turned a team round and pulled them up by the laces even better. But lets not overlook they can't receive a huge salary so its maybe someone who is trying to rebuild a reputation or been highly rated so far but in obscurity or off our radar. Where the club needs to do its homework and essentially a bit of luck is to avoid a Pat Fenlon, on paper pretty good at a lower level, step up was to much though. One thing I'm sure of, it won't be someone on the Scottish football merry-go-round. I genuinely think the club has started to look at 5-10 year plans over short termism, however lets be clear we still have to get safe this year. We do have the players when I look at the other squads, just not the cohesion, pace and belief as yet. NB I can't see Josh Law kicking a ball again this season

FFS .... that is all

Can't beat a few facts from the past as Andy outlined to make people think twice and not assume it was all milk and honey back then. Well based on last season, our league performances totally flattered our squad. With respect to his recruitment decisions, I think he's about 50-50, if anything erring on the positive side of things. I may have missed a few, also I've listed players when they first came to the club opposed to securing permanent deals. 2010/11 Steve Jones - Mate from past, too old, not a success Gavin Gunning - Sad to see him go, thumbs up Francis Jeffers - Scored a couple of meaningful goals, trading on past glories 2011/12 Henrik Ojamaa - Raring success Nicky Law - Raring success Michael Higdon - Slow start, broke goalscoring record, success Tim Clancy - Unfancied at first, did a job, reluctant to see him go Omar Daley - Mate from past, fail Stephen Hughes - Fail 2012/13 James McFadden - Success and added a feel-good factor, didn't materialise in 2nd season, fail Simon Ramsden - Slow start, gradual appreciation, injury, not found form since Kallum Higginbotham - Scored a peach, has blown hot and cold at Partick, plus he's a prick Fraser Kerr - Fair to say fail so far (been used out of favoured position a lot though) 2013/14 Stephen McManus - Where to start, based on everything so far, not lived up to his billing or pedigree Iain Vigurs - On his day, sublime passing, no engine and inconsistent Paul Lawson - Never used how he was at Ross County to gain his move, however fail Gunnar Nielsen - Confidence player and its either in short supply or he has none, Failure John Sutton - Goes through peaks and troughs, we're in a trough at present, still produced the goods last season, mild success Lionel Ainsworth - When he's up for it success, however he's lazy so he's a 50-50 Henri Anier - Success as we made money on him 2014/15 Dan Twardzik - Has something about him, just no presence and stature to intimidate. However according to many on here in January he was the key to all our woes. So McCall isn't the only one to have got that wrong Josh Law - Dream start, now cries of cronyism, big step up Mark O'Brien - Not benefitting from an unstabilised defence I do think he's been guilty of relying on players and a style opposed to adapting things to combat the opposition readily enough. We are too predictable and too slow and others teams have noticed and capitalised. Not securing players with pace has also been a bit of an achilles heel especially this past summer. I also accept he has to hold his hands up to players being unfit on day one, however a fair bit has to be placed in the hands of professionals who only have to keep their fitness up for 6 weeks, it seems like they all kicked back and watched the World Cup with 6 packs and pizza's. However a good manager doesn't become a bad one overnight. In his defence, we've had unprecedented injuries in the past 18 months, from Gannon's time until then we've hardly had any key players out for any significant periods. He secured us 2nd last season which was definitely a sick purse from a sows ear and I'm sure Gordon Strachan hasn't invited him to be part of the setup as purely a social convenor and friendly face. He's at a pivotal point in his career, his stock was pretty high a few months back. He's now at a place where the camaraderie he fosters only goes so far, there doesn't appear a common spirit. For me, brutal honesty, grit and a bit of bad cop have to surface along with changing things up every so often to keep the opposition guessing will define him if he can adapt. I'll draw attention to St Johnstone, big things were touted from them this season and they are 2 points ahead of us. Regardless of the above, as it has been pointed out, I don't think there is enough in the budget to terminate employment, I think the only way it will happen before the season is out is if another club come sniffing. Personally I hope he stays and gets us over this malaise we have at present.

2 neg votes and none of the boo boys stepping up to answer the question, got to love SOL

Dry yer eyes and get off the mock outrage bus. All those calling for his jotters, just out of interest and to inject some realistic expectations, just tell us where abouts in the league you'd have us finish in a season where it isn't spectacular but wouldn't have you wanting him walking? I'd be interested to know where the 7th/8th biggest team in the country (between us and Killie and granted 3 above us are in the league below) can reside without having its fans sharpen their knives?

I did and I also can't deny it was a factor. Lets face it though, Dermot Desmond or David Murray (in his day) seem themselves pack in 45,000 minimum every game and they recognise its probably due to the interest in them that there's even a TV deal in place in the first place get miffed when the other teams ask for a handout. Now look at the rest, they recognise that the big teams wouldn't have anything to broadcast without competition, they know regardless of how successful they are, buses will leave that town every weekend to head to Ibrox and Parkhead, but they think if they were able to compete then their crowds would rise and over time things would be interesting again. You got a quick fix to the above to keep everyone happy, please outline your proposals.

There has to be some sense employed here. Either UEFA have to allow countries without representation to play games midweek or at least allow overlap. After they introduced the Tuesday fixtures a few years back, it limits things considerably, give countries the option of having that back. Secondly, I'm a big advocate of summer football, the game here needs a shot in the arm and I think that would do it. As a nation we'd be hitting Euro qualifiers halfway through the season, t-shirts and light nights, no sandpit playing surfaces, howling gales with horizontal hail and possibility to sell it to other markets as they don't have anything to broadcast during the summers. The SPFL as it stands and its previous incarnations moved from a larger top league to the 10/12 in the late 70's because it was felt the country couldn't sustain a large top league. He we are 35 years later, game is on its arse, teams going bust/admin left right and centre and we're talking about going back up? Madness.

In answer "do we need a new manager?", no. We could do with a few new fans though.

Is that right, away and look through my previous posts and see the continuity. You could always dampen yours with the remnants of the load your boyfriend left in your bellybutton.

Calm down and count to ten when the red mist descends. I never insinuated it would be OK, so the use of quotes is unfair, but I do think we've been slow starters under McCall but as a whole we will click to a degree, it can't and won't go on all season, just not anywhere near as successful as last year. As for the league, Ross County and St. Mirren are the shite I'm talking about. If you scroll back through my historical posts you'll see I said in March we were poor and our league placing flattered us, I got pilloried for that. We won ugly all season often by the odd goal and shipped goals against the top 5. That was always due to be exposed and it has this season, where did I think based on that we'd 6th or 7th give or take. I also agree there is a malaise about the club and I think the management do have to hold their hands up. Far from thinking it'll be alright, I also don't think the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are trotting down Fir Park road.

Thread title "Where do we go from here?", well into this bloody thread as it'll probably get bumped all season. All the naysayers and oracles of impending doom, give us a break, yes its far from ideal but even if we're in the same position in or around the January window, there's enough shite in this league we'll just make it even if we're not firing on all cylinders. Sutton will get a purple patch as he always does and Ojamma is too good not to contribute, injured players will return and stability in formation and tactics will return. Away and ring out yer knickers

According to the naysayers on here, we'll already be down by April and St. Johnstone will be safe so it'll make no odds to them. If the thread was along the lines of Chris Humphrey vs Lionel Ainsworth then that's worthy of a debate and some tangible posts, but alas here we are.

Jonny Page has a couple of European goals too. As for the original premise, why not start a thread comparing a pineapple to an orange, same sorta thing.

And how will his workload affect the dross on the pitch with essentially the same guys who finished 2nd last year. I'm all for pointing fingers and shining a light, but his role, competency and delivery isn't the issue (and has no tangible link I can see) to what is on the park at present. So you're advocating giving people a bit of time to settle in and holding off the pelters? ......... Safe to say if you were an Arab, first sign of below par and you would have been the first sticking the knife in as you've done with half our current team.

Is it any of our business?

Will this thread be as hot a BBQ on the sun every Sunday/Monday after a defeat all season, if it will it's gonna get tedious. Bashing McCall I can understand to a degree (fitness levels and tactics/leaving things too late before changing) but Flow, come on, seriously? Gents, away and lie down in a darkened room and count to ten. As for what we'd do to change things around, do what the Europeans do, get them in from 9 until 5 and if they moan, to hell with them, I'm sure they'll get on just fine at East Stirling if they want to buy out their contract and get down the bookies by 1pm for the first race at Lingfield.