HanoMaSano
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Posts posted by HanoMaSano
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I've been in a rage over the past while over the whole Rangers thing, on the assumption that they will get away with minimal punishment over 10 years of cheating.
I was never threatening to walk away from the club, but would have found it difficult to watch the SPL knowing that they turned a blind eye to sporting integrity in favour of finance.
The recent statement from the club has convinced me that the club WILL listen to the fans before any decision is made and that our board, at least, will do the right thing. This is only right and fair for Scotland's Community Club as we move towards full fan ownership.
So, in good faith that the board will listen to the fans, my group have all renewed our season tickets today.
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The main important outcome from todays meeting is that a Newco will now need to be voted in by member clubs at an EGM, rather than approval fromt he SPL board.
Seeing as the SPL board contains Doncaster and Ralph Topping + 4 clubs (just now it's 'Well, United, St J and Celtic) and Topping gets the deciding vote, only 1 club would be needed to vote for the Newco to be ushered in.
Now Topping and Doncaster will get no say and 5 out of 12 clubs voting 'No' would block the re-entry of Rangers.
No way of knowing how every club will vote, but seeing as how Rangers have p!ssed a lot of people off by going to the Court of Session, I'm more confident in them being told politely where to go than I was before todays meeting.
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You could be right but reading some of the comments from yon Channel 4 guy about local hacks warning him off and even threatening him makes me think agenda is about right. I believe they are as complicit as Murray and Whyte and everyone else in office who turned a blind eye to these shenanigans just cos it was The Rainjurs.
Well hopefully everything gets exposed over the next few months.
Would be good if Young, Traynor, Keevins and the rest all got exposed and Record/Sun/BBC/Clyde etc get the opportunity to clear the decks. Get rid of them all.
There must be young upcoming journalists that would do a better job than these clowns.
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Proof of their hidden agenda I'd say, surely a 'respected journalist' couldn't be so far away from being remotely accurate in their investigations?
Quite funny when Graham Spiers came out with the line on the Off the Ball the other day.
Cosgrove (who was actually aware of these numbers) got absolutely tore into him for talking shite.
I'm not sure it's an agenda to be fair, but the succulant lamb brigade have been so used to being spoon fed stories from David Murray for so long that they don't actually remeber how to investigate anything before spewing it out on radio/tv/papers as fact.
Sports Journalism in Scotland has got to be the worst in the world.
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The Irish league is not a comparison either. The Scottish first division pulls in bigger crowds than the Irish league. Another example of myths being perpetuated to generate fear by the old firm and their cronies.
I don't know on what planet the SPL would be anywhere near the Irish or Welsh Leagues without the Old Firm.
You here these comparisons all the time and it's completely ridiculous. Obviously the Irish league is a bit closer than the Welsh but both are way out.
Last seasons attendance figures:
SPL............. 13,865
SPL (minus OF)... 6,904
SFL Division 1... 2,290
Ireland.......... 1,613
SFL Division 2..... 605
SFL Division 3..... 475
Welsh P.L. ........ 329
The fact that you hear this dross from some of our supposed experts and "respected" journalists is pretty scary to be honest.
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Really pleased with that statement from the club.
Well thought out, well-articulated, and well-reasoned.
Obviously with no decision to make right now they were never going to come down definitely on one side of the argument or other, but I'm really happy to see a commitment in paper to consult with fans groups before any decision is made.
In comparison to the Killie chairman’s embarrassing "Finance must override sporting integrity" comments this is night and day.
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1337796163[/url]' post='342870']
The players that turned out for Hearts and Hibs in the cup final last week aren't of the standard they had a few years ago. Do you think that mattered to either set of fans in the build up to the game?
Fans support their clubs, not the players.
Exactly, and if the whole league is cutting back at the same time and we are as competitive as before, no one would give a F*ck if the standard was slightly lower.
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Wondering if the MST have done anything regarding finding out what it's members think about the scenario?
So this can be put to the club?
Just wondering as I read this letter from the sheep fans board :http://www.donssupporterstogether.com/open-letter-to-stewart-milne-re-upcoming-spl-meeting/
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I don't think any one is saying professional football would be in danger but standards would drop.
Did you see us beat full time first division side Morton 6-0 with out hardly lifting a finger?
I actually went to 1st division games last season and I think people would get a bit of a rude awakening at the standard of football played compared to the SPL. It is nowhere near SPL level for the most part. Dunfermline Athletic won the First Division by 10 clear points and look how badly they fared this season.
Footballing standards are not a major issue to be honest. I like watching good football, and enjoy watching Barcelona etc. but the majority of our fans just want us to "Get it up the park" anyway!
Yes the standard may drop a bit if the budgets were cut, but they would be cut across the board (Celtic's would be cut a lot more than anybody else’s) and the league would become more competitive.
A couple of years with a more competitive league and the fans and dare I say TV companies would not be shy in coming back. The standards would rise again.
The SPL have one chance to deal with serial cheaters and then change the balance in Scottish football for good. Goodbye unfair revenue split, goodbye 11-1 voting system. Without their bigot brothers Celtic wouldn't have a leg to stand on when it came to changing the SPL rules for the benefit of all.
If they don't take it then there can be no complaining about the unfair advantage the filth have, especially when within 2/3 years Rangers are back lording it over us diddies.
One chance to change the landscape of Scottish football for the better. Yet nobody wants to take the responsibility.
Even the club who are moving to being completely fan run look unlikely to stand up for what the fans want. We're not stupid, lay it out in Black and white, say "Without Rangers in the league we stand to lose £X,XXX and in real terms that would be these 4/5 players couldn't be kept on and would be replaced by youth team players" Let the fans know what the impact would be, if the vast, vast majority still feel that it is a price worth paying to punish cheating and aid fairness, then that should be the vote cast.
Motherwell have no control over the rest of the SPL and how they will vote, but at least we could move forward with a clear conscience that at least we did the just thing.
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The same fans that will be going ape shit having pumped their money in, if the club collapses on the back of the blue arse cheek getting booted out??
Not saying the club will collapse, I honestly don't know. But there is blatantly a fear amongst the rest of the chairmen in the league that a Rangers demise will have significant financial implications on everyone.
Which is why there has to be consultation. If the board were to spell out what the implications were in terms of finances, and what the impact of that would be in terms of cutting the playing budget etc. and the fans had an opportunity to explain their feelings about the sporting integrity of our league. Then balanced conclusions can be drawn as all the facts would be known by all parties.
Instead we have everyone from Neil Doncaster to Chick Young peddling doomsday scenarios and apocalyptic predictions about what would happen without Rangers (The vast majority of people you here these things from have a vested interest in Rangers staying in the league and I don't believe a fraction of it)
For every mouthpiece on here that says the club should be listening to the fans who ploughed their money in, there will be a shit load more greeting and wailing next year if your money dissapears along with the professional status of half the clubs in the division.
9/10 first division sides maintain Full time professional football without TV money of visits from the filth, and most are considerably smaller than the majority of the SPL clubs. Why should the professional status of any SPL club be in danger.. It's like the "We'll end up like the Welsh League" myth that gets peddled about all the time, despite the fact that the 3rd Division in Scotland gets more viewers than the Welsh league. The ignorance of some within the media is staggering.
Again, Im not saying this is going to happen, I would love nothing more than Rangers to get kicked out and the league to be in a position to continue as if nothing had happened, but it would appear that no one actually knows what the impacts will be on everyone.
I know you’re not, but there are plenty are proclaiming it from the rooftops without providing a shred of evidence that this would be the case.
I worry less about what would happen to the rest of the clubs without Rangers than I do about what will happen to the support of the diddy clubs if they are let back in and the fans are well and truly scunnered and walk away from Scottish football in droves.
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To balance the moral view of this, the clubs will all be mainly looking at the financial aspect.
It's true that Rangers (and Celtic) bring bigger crowds to Fir Park, so there will be lost revenue here. However Rangers fans groups are all threatening to Boycott ALL away fixtures next season, so there may be a loss with or without them in the league.
So the main issue becomes the TV Money. This is where Neil Doncaster is seriously letting his employers (the clubs) down. Sky haven't singed the deal for next season, and the previous deal had a clause saying that they could re-negociate if Rangers and Celtic are not in the league.
As CEO of the SPL he needs to get clarification of what the TV companies would pay for a Rangerless SPL. All we keep hearing is the doomsday scenario with no TV money at all. This is complete and utter tripe, there would still be a TV deal, and it's part of his job to see how much he can get for the product.
Currently he is posturing, hoping that by the uncertainty created, clubs will fear the worst and vote them back in by default. He need's to get all appropriate information and come to the clubs with that information so they know what they are voting for. Instead he's jumping on the "Scottish Football needs Rangers" bandwagon.
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When there is a decision to be made then the clubs will do what is best for themselves. Though with our club making the moves to becoming completely fan run in the near future, it seems to me that it would be completely ridiculous if the current board did not take into account the opinions of the fans (especially those who have joined the society and will own the club soon) into account with such a major decision looming.
I have kept quiet on this issue as, to be honest, I'm not sure where I stand. I haven't, nor have any of the group I attend matches with, renewed my season ticket yet. I'm normally first in line when the renewal forms come out, so I imagine that the club will be noticing renewals down. With the guarantee of Champions League tickets for holders, you would expect applications for ST's to be through the roof this summer, the board must be concerned.
I'm not threatening to quit the game if the club vote for a Newco, but while I'm swithering I know that there are many who will flat out stop attending SPL games if it is proven, once and for all, that the game in Scotland is essentially rigged, and no amount of cheating from one of the bigot brothers will be properly punished. (Let’s face it, the transfer embargo from the SFA was more than we were expecting, but considering the crime amounts to no more than a slap on the wrist.)
So for all this I hope that, whatever the outcome of the vote, that Motherwell can keep a clean conscience by doing the right thing and voting the cheating current's to get to f***!
PS. For anyone to compare Motherwell's administration (caused by financial mismanagement based mainly on unrealistic expectations of the crowds that would turn out to see the team with more investment competing for Uefa qualification) To Rangers (caused by deliberate non-payment of PAYE and VAT) is deluded.
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But he's not getting one - so he can't get any through the 'wellevate' scheme. Hence he need to by his child a ticket.
His post says that the reason he's not getting one is that the kid wouldn't get a free one.
Unless I'm missing something or have lost the ability to read (fairly possible!)
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I wont be renewing my season ticket this year as i have to pay for my child rather than free season ticket when i purchase mine.
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Why do you have to pay?
You get the free kid's ticket with your own with the WELLevate scheme surely.
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EK's statement is correct
It is now certain that a europa cup place will be won by the cup winner or Runner up unless Aberdeen somehow make it to the top 6 and the final
If celtic win cup then aberdeen or hibs will take lowest euro spot. ( Unless aberdeen end up in a top 6 poition higher than the lowest qualifying spot )
Obviously if Aberdeen or hibs ( or St mirren or hearts ) win the cup they get highest qualifying berth.
if St Mirren or hearts get beat in the final They get nothing since the winner ( aberdeen or hearts ) will take highest berth.
Ah, I misread the statement.
I read as "It is now certain that a europa cup place will be won by the cup Runner up".
Sorry for any confusion.
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1) whoever wins cup gets first europa cup place .They will enter in playoff round. If Celtic win cup they are in champions league and runner up ( Hibs or Aberdeen will get 3rd europa cup place) earliest entry lowest rank in qualifying round 2
2) Celtic in Champions league qualifying round 3 champions draw . Next eligible team in league qualifying round 3 non-champions draw. Next 2 eligible teams will be either 1st or 2nd Europa cup qualifier or 2nd and 3rd Europa cup qualifier if hearts St Mirren hibs or Aberdeen win cup
3) 1st Europa league qualifier is round 4, 2nd is round 3, and 3rd is Round 2 of qualifying competition
It is now certain that a europa cup place will be won by the cup winner or Runner up unless Aberdeen somehow make it to the top 6 and the final
Simples!
I don't think that is right.
If Hearts win the cup, and finish in a Europa spot in the league then the runner up would not qualify.
Hearts would take the cup spot (the best Europa spot) and their qualificatiuon spot in the league would drop down to the next highest team. (ie. all top 6 apart from Rangers would be in Europe)
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I admit I havent checked the figures out and merely used a commonly quoted figure. Dont doubt your figures on prize money, however, isnt there additional money distributed dependent on tv appearances?
Either way, my additional points stand. A lot of the money we lose from any prospective tv deal can be made back in other ways which can actually strengthen the scottish game as opposed to continually weakening it.
Yeah the figure does get inflated and I've heard the 60/70% numbers floating about, so understandable that people believe them. There isn't any extra money for TV appearances in the league, the quoted is the complete breakdown.
Still, 32% of the money going to 2 clubs is still too much. Especially when those 2 clubs lose NO money with reduced gates due to televised games as the only home games which at on TV are guarenteed sells outs (flag unfurling at the start of the season, Old Firm derbies, title deciders). The rest of us lose out on ticket money whenever the sky/ESPN cameras roll in.
In my model, 19.5% of the money would go to the top 2, the savings used to subsidise a bigger league. The rest of the top 12 would be almost unaffected, and nobody could complain about the fairness of the payouts because of the linear increments.
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How are they a cash cow?
Yes, without them there is no Sky deal but they and Celtic take 70% of that money.
For that privelege we get locked into a shitty 12 team league that bores the pants off everyone and has been driving attendances down for years.
We also have to do what they tell us because of the very democratic 11-1 vote that ensures they retain all the power.
If Rangers are allowed to get away with this it will be more of the same until our game is dead, and this time we will only have ourselves to blame cause we didnt have the balls to do something about it when the chance arose.
The top 2 do take more than their fair share, but it is often exaggerated, as above. The breakdown of prize moneys (as per the SPL rules) is as follows:
1___17.00%
2___15.00%
3___9.50%
4___8.50%
5___8.00%
6___7.50%
7___7.00%
8___6.50%
9___6.00%
10__5.50%
11__5.00%
12__4.50%
If I was in charge there would be a 16 team league with the following prize breakdown:
1___10.00%
2___9.50%
3___9.00%
4___8.50%
5___8.00%
6___7.50%
7___7.00%
8___6.50%
9___6.00%
10__5.50%
11__5.00%
12__4.50%
13__4.00%
14__3.50%
15__3.00%
16__2.50%
Success still means more money, but it's split in a much fairer way, no jumps to the top 2.
If you split the same money in a linear fashion the money taken from the top teams could fund the extra 4 teams.
4th-12th would all receive exactly the same as they currently do, with 3rd receiving only 0.5% less.
EDIT: To fix dodgy typing
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i wouldn't chuck anyone out that is capable of fulfilling their fixtures unless their is some explicit cheating going on eg the calcio scandal.
ebt's are immoral but they are only a small part of a massive amount of tax avoidance (70bn a year). they were widely used by banks and english clubs as well because their accountants told them they found a loop hole in the system. the government closed that retrospectively (which i'm glad about) and now they have to pay up. no one is talking about punishing the english teams involved and no one has ever mentioned newco share transfer ruining the credibility of english football as far as i can remember.
where were the high horses when we went into admin, bumped the taxman, sacked our players and finished bottom and still stayed in the league (then signed partick's best players whilst still in admin)?
It's already been pointed out that the two situations are not comparable, as we are not talking about the scenario of Rangers coming out of admin as Motherwell did, but liquidating and coming back as a whole new company parachuted into the SPL.
One thing I would like to point out though is Motherwell never "bumped the taxman". When we were in administration the tax man got every single penny owed and was not part of the CVA of 20p in the £. The vast majority of which was John Boyle writing off his own money, and almost all the rest was overpaid players cancelled contracts.
Was it a proud time in our history? No
Were some innocents out of pocket because of our mismanagement? Yes
Is it the same as taking a company into bankruptcy after deliberately not paying and VAT or PAYE for a year? Not in the same ball park!
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Ha, on "Preview Post" that image showed up a bit better, I think you get the idea anyway!!
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Sorry if this has already been pointed out, but the splash page of the official site http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/ is showing a counter of where we are towards out target for March 31st:
Almost there, but with 3 weeks to go looking like it might be quite tight!
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Having been a season ticket holder since I was 8, following the club home and away for many years and having just signed my self and my wife up for the well society, I find it hard to say I would never be back to the SPL. However I don't anything would make my blood boil more than a newco Rangers being let back into a status-quo SPL without major sanctions and changes. I think it may push me over the edge with regards my interest in Scottish Football.
I don't doubt that if Rangers are liquidated they would be allowed back into the division, however I'd be hugely disappointed in our own club if that was allowed without these considerations:
1) No other club can be put out to allow them back in, we can't relegate Hibs/Dunfermline or deny Ross County promotion to allow a brand new "Govan Rangers 1690 FC" in. All sporting integrity would be gone. If they are to be let back in it has to be part of an expansion to the league which the majority of fans have been calling out for for years. ***
2) Newco Rangers HAVE to be given severe sanctions, -20 points each season for the next 3/4 seasons. SPL Voting rights suspended for the same period.
3) Voting rights HAVE to be moved away from the 11-1 system, we cannot allow our club (and similar clubs) to be dictated to by the Old Firm veto.
4) The money has to be more evenly distributed, it's fair enough that 1st should get more than 2nd should get more than 3rd etc. But this has to be done in a LINEAR fashion. (the money cut from the top two could then be used to fund the extra teams in an expanded league.)
If the clubs put their collective feet down and achieve the majority of the above then I'd accept the SPL with Newco Rangers. It would still grate slightly, but I could understand that it was done for the good of the game.
*** (14 or my preference 16 team leagues CAN work with fairer splits/playoffs. If Neil Doncaster or any of the board at MFC have an open mind I could show them a proposal for a 16 team league that would provide all of what Doncaster says is vital for Sky TV, with none of the drawbacks of the current unfair split)
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Seeing as Andy_P got the idea for this after reading my rant on the 'Well society thread, I think I should contribute.
Heading up to Fir Park tonight to get me and the boss signed up to the Society, but will chip in here as well.
£30 seems to be the going rate, will get this sent over Pay Pal today.
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Also why would it be embarrassing? Oh dear - small provincial club fails to raise enough cash for ownership in the middle of a downturn where fans are already paying way over the odds for a pretty sub standard product. There is nothing to be ashamed of there.
If St Mirren raised £1.5 million then I think it is embarrassing if we can't raise £250,000.
We aren't talking about raising enough money to stage a takeover of the club (as was the case for St. Mirren) we're talking about being able to raise the bare minimum to make it workable for us to be GIFTED the shares.
Some things aren't perfect, the minimum buy in at £300 will be out-with some peoples budget, but as I said before there are ways around this. There's nothing to stop friends/family chipping in and buying a membership between them, even if it would have to be in one name. The timing has been poor (through nobody’s fault) being just after Christmas, IMO the deadline should be extended if we don't reach the target before March to reflect this.
Some people will not want to be involved, and that's fair enough. But some will want to criticise the running of the club, have the money, but not stump up to have their say on how the club is run going forward.
I'm not saying people should sign up if they can't afford it. What I am saying is that if you are in the position where you CAN afford the membership, and you care about the future of Motherwell FC, then put up or shut up.
Also I would dissagree that what the boys are serving up this season is a "sub standard product", but that's a different argument.
Straight Question To The Board Of Mfc Re. Rangers Newco
in Club Chat
Posted
I know we have a big thread on what the board's reaction to the Rangers situation should be.
But I wanted to add a very simple and straightforward poll to capture exactly what the opinion is, no ifs buts or maybes, just a simple Yes or No to a Newco Rangers.
How should Motherwell FC vote if they were to represent the fans view (or at least those fans on steelmen online!)