Motherwell Seagull

Decent post. You'll get no argument here! I despaired at the football we played, with Hamilton in particular being a low point for me personally. That said, without the players being available who pass the ball well (and Quinn in Midfield), I should have known that our silky passing game would have been thrown out the window.

Putting this into the context of my last post, should we consider McGhee to have displayed untold loyalty by not only being less well paid than other managers, but also by turning down a bigger wage to stay at Motherwell, and especially just by turning down FHW? I don't know where Buzz features in the table of goalkeepers salaries, but I don't think honouring your contract can be described as loyalty. To be clear, I am not anti Buzz, far from it. I simply believe that McGhee is getting a hard time for signing a pre-contract with a goalie when in fact we may need a new goalie in the summer. As I said in my last post - many would deride McGhee if he did not have a Plan B should Buzz move on - we shouldn't criticise him now for actually acting and covering that base.

Am in two minds on this point. Instinctively I agree with you, but then I struggle to see how he could have done much different, and improved matters substantially. I think the reality is that he has been hamstrung in terms of injuries and suspensions, and that is all he has really claimed. We have a squad that can ill afford to loose more than 1 or 2 players at a time. I don't believe this is necessarily McGhee's fault as he does not have the financial backing to simply go get players to replace what we have - unless we first free up wages somewhere. I do think he should have reacted to the fans differently. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, he was quoted as saying that he did not care what the fans thought. Again, being fair to McGhee, he has since stated that of course he cares about what the fans think, and I guess that is as close as we will get to an apology. For what its worth, I think that those comments highlight that McGhee is a proud and passionate guy, who is doing everything he can to do his best for us. I think he has been stung by the criticism he has had from some quarters and reacted poorly - but that is just typical of people who are passionate about what they do. I remember when I first heard him speak as Brighton Manager. I was impressed with his apparent openess, knowledge and common sense. Over time I don't think he can be accused of changing a great deal - of course, his message may not be what fans want to hear, but if you want a manager that communicates, you have to take the good with the bad.

In the same context, Buzz is not exactly showing us a great deal of loyalty himself. If he wants a move he could just say he wants a move instead of hedging his bets, dragging his feet etc and simply saying that he wants to see what else is out there (am not criticising Buzz for doing this - he is entitled to do it as is Porter and everyone else). Yes I am overstating Buzz's position, but all McGhee has done is look after the club for next year. He was quoted yesterday as saying that he is still hopefull of retaining Buzz, and ideally we will have 2 keepers next season instead of hunting for loans etc. Many would deride McGhee if he did not have a Plan B should Buzz move on - we shouldn't criticise him now for actually acting and covering that base. As they say, the ball is in Buzz's court

Aye, and even if Buzz does stay, the club are in a better bargaining position regarding a new contract Buzz has been a decent player for us, and if he is moving on I wish him well

I don't think its an unreasonable offer, but it only equates to a few positions up the league in terms of our end of season reward, and Porters goals could well equate to more than that assuming that both he and Clarky stay fit. I wonder if the Utd game may well have significance here - if we loose that one even McGhee admits that we have to give up on dillusions of grandeur this season

I continue to find it disheartening when an 'average' English Division One club can attract players from the SPL. I regularly watch games in this league, and the standard is poor in comparison to the SPL, yet I would guess that the average wage at many of these club is in excess of anything that is on offer in Scotland outwith possibly 4-5 clubs. Its also sobering to think that Huddersfield's average gate is possibly 2 or 3 times that of Motherwell, and I suspect that the average cost for an adult is around £20 to £25 per game just like Motherwell. I'd hate to see Porter stuck down in Division One in England - too many ex SPL players are already in this league simply going through the motions and taking their cheque. I think Porter is already too good for League One, and even if Huddersfield do go up this year, would suspect that Porter could attract a better offer for himself if he bides his time. If he has ambition he will not go to Hearts at this time - He has a chance to really establish himself in English football potentially with a Championship level club and I think the opportunities that will bring will rule the Jambos out.

As long as Clarky stays fit, I reckon Porter's goals could well be worth 2-3 league positions to us. That would be a big chunk of the 150k reputedly on offer. If he was the difference between a top and bottom 6 finish, then the increased gate revenues etc would presumably make up the difference I do not think we will find a Porter replacement that will immediately score goals, and we simply do not know (yet) if Sutton can step in with the same number of goals. I'd keep Porter and his goals thankyou very much, and wish him good luck in the summer - assuming he heads South! I would not sell him mid season to another Scottish club unless trully ridiculous money was offered.

Decent post Moe From reading this thread alone, it is quite plain to me that the Trust needs to change. New initiatives on their part are not what's needed right now - re-organisation and rebranding is required. In business terms, they first require to do some market research (perhaps a thread on here entitled 'What needs to change before I join the Trust' would be a decent start). The difficult part for any organisation will then be to listen and act on the feedback. The consensus may in fact be that there is no demand from the fans to have an organisation to represent them! Existing for the sheer hell of it should not be an option, and other movements (even this board) can fundraise. I think and hope that there is a role for the trust to play. The Club can only be stronger with Fans and Ownership talking to each other on a completely different level to where we are now.

That's a strange comment to sign off on! Frazzle has asked you repeatedly in this thread to elaborate on the points that would make a difference to you, and here you are suggesting that he only looks out for himself? I've had my beefs with the Trust in the past, but if they continue with the vigour that Frazzle has displayed on this thread, I will have to think long and hard about rejoining.

I appreciate the Trust has set out a wide and varied mission statement for itself, but again I ask why should it attempt to represent all fans? As with any organisation it is only 'obliged' to represent its own members. Why should non-members simply freeload, and expect the organisation to represent their thoughts and wishes? As I have said in my earlier posts - IF you care enough, and want to be heard and counted, it is the only viable option open to you! It will also provide you with the opportunity to provide the forward movement that you clearly crave. What is the alternative? Waiting for the perfect bandwagon before jumping on board will mean missing out. Either you care enough to do something about it, or you don't. And who is to say that you would not be? Unless you give it a go, you will never know! Whether we like it or not, its this sort of defeatist/apathetic 'why bother' attitude that Boyle appears to rely on - until a critical mass of fans unite behind 1 representative body, he can easily dismiss the fans as being insignificant!

Why should the Trust represent the views of non members? The fact that the Trust has tried on a number of occasions to engage and represent the Support as a whole perhaps deters from the fact that they are only obliged to represent the views of their membership! My statement about whether the trust could/should be better is irrelevant stems from the fact that they remain the only fans forum with anything like a critical mass. If you want to be heard you have no alternative other than to be part of it - a single voice will not be heard, and its unlikely that another vehicle representing the fans would get off the ground! Thats not to say that you could not/would not improve the trust by joining.

Here is the thing... The Trust remains the only 'voice of the fans' that is anywhere near big enough to make a difference. If you really want to be heard, or to have things changed at Fir Park, you need to be part of the Trust. Moaning on these boards (and I am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular here - I have enjoyed my fair share of rants in the past) achieves nothing other than letting steam off. Whether the trust could/should be better is irrelevant, although it strikes me that it will become more powerful and effective the larger its membership.

Its simple - they're Wankers!

So what if he is a wanker? I thought Brian Martin was a wanker when he was at St Mirren and he turned out to be a fantastic acquisition for the club. Guess I am showing my age now!

Game was moved for a postponement, not for TV. Sadly, I can't see if being on anywhere

Why do you think that McGhee doesn't rate Fitzpatrick? Seems to me that he is in and around the starting 11 whenever he is fit. I agree that this can't be said for Boab and Smith.

Guys, send me PM if you are still looking for this

McGhee has questioned the loyalty of the fans at pretty much every club he has been at. Its one of the reasons that I believe that he does divide supporters. He is wrong to question loyalty, just as he was wrong at previous clubs. That said, the backing that the team receives during the 90 mins could be better. Given our league position it is obvious that we need everyone to pull together over the 90, not bitch and moan when passes are misplaced, and tackles mis-timed. It was not long ago that a fair number of the fans made their feelings known when Lasley was subbed. By his own admission, Lasley was having a stinker and had run out of gas. Hardly a wrong decision from the manager, but one the manager will remember being pilloried for. If a player is not performing, or has a poor attitude, I expect the manager to deal with it. I respect McGhee for the fact that he sticks up for his teams/players. If we want the right to moan about decisions and performances (we pay our money after all) it is perfectly acceptable for the manager to question our attitudes, and backing. Time to get off your high horses and back the team. I couldn't care less if McGhee is a tosser - as long as he cares about what happens on the pitch, and improves the club (assuming financial backing). I for one do not want another Malpas in charge. There are more than a few things to question McGhee's performance on - especially IMHO his signings (or lack of them), but there is no point chucking toys out the pram when he turns the tables on us, and questions our backing. At the end of the Inverness game would you rather have 3 points, or the opportunity to say 'I told you McGhee was a tosser'?

But, (also) according to McGhee we had tested the system, switched it on, and taken additional steps to ensure the game went ahead. Assuming McGhee is correct in what he said, what more could, and should the club have done? Conflicting sound-bites from the club are not helpful, and as a result the support is too quick to dismiss anything that comes from the club. I think Gaag posted earlier that the so called hangers on have a decent record in business prior to Zoom. To be honest I can see PR for a football club being similar to that for an airline - it should be about getting bums on seats! Its unlikely that change will happen in the short-term. We should all be thinking about how we can promote change within the club (its too easy to be negative and just moan). As I have said before - I believe the Trust is the only vehicle for this as it is the only fans body of sufficient size. That said, a lot of you are Season Ticket holders and appear happy not to renew. I wonder how the club would react to a few hundred of you acting together, not renewing your tickets and citing events/communication as the reason? None of us want to hurt the club, but I do that the club plays on this.

Guys Just saw Frazzle's post re Uncle Phil on another thread and it hit me that we are only a few weeks away from the anniversary of his passing. Its been a typical year for Motherwell fans in terms of the rollercoaster ride, but am sure that many (of not all) of us will want to remember Phil in some way. Just wondered if any thought had gone into some form of display - perhaps at the Inverness game?

Apologies if I have missed this elsewhere, but is there any news on when Craigan may return? My old man is beginning to think he is enjoying the old Ally McCoist, media darling role too much to make a come back as a player!

There is no argument - general communication with the club is abysmal. The level of suspicion, trust, and respect between Club and Support is beyond a joke. It needs to be addressed - and I don't mean dragging up all the dirt again and again (eg the Cooper stand). Its going to take the support to accept the current position and do what they can to improve it, and the powers that be to accept that they have lost vast chunks support, and that they need to listen, and learn from past mistakes. I wonder which is more unlikely? As much as I hate to say this, the Trust needs to be far more pro-active on this matter, and if that means going public to get Boyle's attention then so be it. The Trust remains the only fans forum with sufficient numbers and credibility to do this. Ironic that in disregarding the fans that Boyle is in effect showing that he can be a strong leader - just not in the one many want! He deserves some credit for not deserting the sinking ship (regardless of whose fault it was/is), but needs to open up and communicate. Unless the support sees a fuller picture regarding the running of the club, the suspicion levels will just increase - as will the tendency to just assume the club f####d up rather than the cause being something outwith the control of the club. I do not dispute the principle here, but there must surely be times when conditions for supporters should be taken into account (off topic I know)? Sometimes gremlins do cause failures; sometimes cars break down despite being serviced regularly! I am not saying that the club are blameless for the game not going ahead on Saturday, but I do think they are entitled to the old innocent until proven guilty adage.

Absolutely, but not necessarily the Club's doing

You are quick to assume that the club has done something wrong. Do you know something we don't? Have listened to McGhee's comments and it seems that the club have tested the heating, switched it on, and taken additional precautions to avoid a problem. What else could they have done? I have no reason not to believe what McGhee has said, although I admit that he was incredibly negative for someone essentially saying that the club did all it reasonably could. Seems to me that the investigation will either judge that the system is not working through no fault of Motherwell, or that someone has been feeding McGhee untruths.