DosserJoe

All, Please be aware that I met with Neil Doncaster yesterday afternoon on behalf of Motherwell Supporters Trust. The following information is my take on the meeting and not necessarily representative of the views of MST and it's members. Firstly, it is important to make it clear that the SPL invited all Supporters Trust chairmen to meet with Neil after the interim results of the Supporters Direct survey were made public. This may or may not be the reason behind his invitation to meet, but none-the-less it is good that supporters are finally being invited to contribute to what is an important subject to us all. Neil opened the meeting by taking me through the facts and figures of what has been proposed by the SPL working party. I'll start by running through with you all the clear positives of the proposal... Finances Firstly, the proposal will not lead to a dramatic increase in revenue or prize money for the top 10 clubs. In most cases all top 10 clubs will earn essentially the same amount of money as they do now in TV & Sponsorship from the centre. The key benefit to the clubs is the amount of money that clubs in the lower divisions will receive. The "SPL 2" will be significantly better off than the clubs in this division are at the moment. The only clubs that would be worse off are the 2 clubs relegated as part of the reconstruction in their first year. This reduction in revenue however is much more attractive than the financial penalty of relegation under the current set-up Play-off's at the bottom of the division will also be attractive to broadcasters and will be key to securing extra TV revenue. I would also suggest that from a fans point of view, this will make the games at the end of the season crucial for at least 4 clubs and in turn lead to an increase in attendances at this time. Competition From a fan's perspective, the relegation play-offs would be exciting. They would also lead to a potential for two new clubs to enter the fold each year, which is one element that needs to be addressed under any set-up. One-up, one down is simply not attractive. SPL 2 would see a number of teams vying for promotion and on occasion you could find a "bigger" club being relegated. In this years scenario, you could have an Aberdeen being relegated, which will make SPL 2 attractive to the potential of a TV deal. The other clear benefits of the proposal can be summarised... Colt Teams playing in the 3rd division U21 Rule scrapped Early Start Winter break And so to the negatives and the things missing... Revenue Whilst I am in no doubt, security for clubs being relegated and stability for the remaining 10 is attractive; I believe that not enough thought has been put into how many fans will walk away from the game on the back of the stagnation. I asked Neil what the average income for a club was on Gate Receipts and TV money. As an average, he told me that £2m of gate receipts and £1m of TV revenue was the norm. Personally, I am upset that the TV companies have been consulted all through the process on what they want for their £1m; us fans however have not been consulted on what we want from our £2m! Neil and Henry McLeish' argument that has been peddled in the press of the 16 team division leading to a reduction in games is flawed. A 16 team SPL can incorporate a split, which would lead to 38 games, hence no reduction in games and potentially an increase in competitiveness. Please see attached as just one example I received from a Trust member in advance of the meeting. Neil claimed that the TV companies have said they would pay less for a flat 16, less for a division with a split and more for a division that will guarantee 4 Old Firm & 4 Edinburgh derby matches, along with play-offs. My concern with this is that the people involved with this panel asked the TV companies a loaded question. I believe they didn't provide them with reasonable options on what a 16 team split could look like for selfish reasons. Their concern is that mid-table teams would suffer from too many irrelevant games at the end of the season, and that at the bottom there is not enough quality outwith the 16 biggest teams to make relegation a spectacle. On top of that, the teams (O.F. excepted) are all worried about losing the revenue from 1 home game against Rangers & Celtic. Oppose this to a 10 team division where they will potentially gain an Old Firm game they don't have just now. My concern with this is that Celtic and Rangers attendances are on the slide big style just now and this carrot is becoming less attractive. Gone are the days when their season tickets had a waiting list and 50-60,000 packed the stadiums every week. This pattern is sure to be reflected in away games and will only get worse if they agree to televise more games. Competition Go back to my point earlier. We, the £2m slice, should be far more important to the clubs. The key thing that is missing from the 10 team SPL is an increase in competitiveness at the top. In my opinion it will make the race for the title more of a foregone conclusion that it is right now. I for one am bored of seeing the Old Firm run away with it every year and would love it if a team like Hearts could mount a serious challenge against them. I would love it even more if Motherwell could too, but sadly 1991 to 1993 is but a distant memory. Neil wouldn't come out and say he agrees with me, but it was clear he does. The division will become a precession and we will all continue to live on the coat tails of the big 2. That's not his fault, that's the fault of the SPL chairmen who are too interested in the financial side of the game and less interested in developing a spectacle that we would all enjoy to watch. A 16 team division in any variation, split or no split, would deliver a true chance of other clubs running the Old Firm close once in a while. Neil clearly wasn't interested in looking at the merits of a 16 however and was only interested in trying to convince me that the 10 team option was the best for all. The only thing that I agree with him on with his objection to a 16 team division is that attendances at the bottom end of the division with games against the likes of Queen of the South (had to pick on someone - sorry) would be far lower than a game against the likes of St Mirren. This could lead to some teams (those that finish 6th to 10th) receiving less money through the gate. On the flip side, I personally believe that is a risk we should be willing to take. 4 teams suffering from a drop in attendances in the seasons they finish in the middle bracket is surely better than 10 teams all suffering a drop year on year on year... TV revenues would only increase, in my opinion, on the back of the division being more flexible on Kick Off times and match days, rather the quality of product. Again, this is to the detriment of the paying punter. Given that there are so few broadcasters with their hat in the ring, I doubt this additional revenue will actually transpire. Finally. I asked the question of Neil as to how many modern European divisions were operating a 10 team division. Before the meeting I was only aware of Austria. He told me about Switzerland and how their attendances have increased. Granted he is right. But he failed to point out that much of this is on the back of 4 teams vying for the title every year and most teams operating out of new stadiums on the back of hosting the Euro championships. In summary at the end of the meeting, Neil asked me if I would prefer a 10 team division or a 12 team status quo. I had to say based on the evidence, a top 10 is better than the status quo. On reflection, I think this question was asked in a rather loaded format, much in the same way I suspect the SPL questioned the TV companies. I suppose that question to me is like asking me if I would like to chose between the two worst options on the table. The bigger, bolder, option has been overlooked by the custodians of our teams and a genuine look at a progressive model in consultation with TV companies and Fans together prevented. I personally hope the vote is doomed to fail and that the whole issue is revisited in an open and transparent manner from day 1, including fans from all clubs and all generations. I'll finish off by re-iterating these are my views from the meeting and not necessarily representative of MST and it's members. The MST board will be debating the issue of reconstruction and will be launching a members consultation to allow us to make a statement that is representative of the majority view on what members would prefer to see encompassed in the new structure. Scottish_Football_RestructureV2.ppt

Just ref Leeann's comment that some folk are getting their knickers in a twist aboot... I had a chat with her a few weeks ago and she said something along these lines... Some SPL Chairmen and Staff don't have a grip on reality of what they are doing to the game. We expect fans to turn up to games at our convenience - Not theirs - with stupid kick off times We tell them they can't stand up We expect them to pay over the odds for sub-standard catering We tell them they can't drink We tell them they can't wave flags And we expect them to pay £20 and upwards for the privilege, or in some cases at away games over £80 for a family of four in admission alone. I hope she disney mind me posting up that sort of detail of our conversation. She's right, some fans don't have a grip of the financial reality but I know for a fact she knows that other SPL clubs don't have a grip on how bad the finances of the game are. More importantly, too many of them are against modernisation and don't appreciate how much the fans mean to a club. My take on her overall attitude is this. I don't think she thinks our current admission prices (and those all over the SPL) are good value. I think what she's trying to do is make our current admission prices reflect good value for the price. This but is an uphill battle with some of the other SPL clubs. I think she knows that dropping the price won't work, and the game on the park is in many ways outwith her control, so she has to work on improving the overall matchday experience to return better value for our admission.

Will be having a word with the club this week to find out what's happening with the £7k we gave them - had a look at the enclosure yesterday at the 6's and does not look like any work has been done as yet.

Just a bump for this guys. Be great to see as many people coming along for a booze and give funds to the club rather than local boozers.

Don't have any insider info to share unlike many others on here. What I would say but is if the £84m winner of EuroMillions wants to earn a pal or two in Motherwell he should donate some lolly to MFC to match the best offer of any potential sponsor and give us a jersey without a sponsor. I used to love the Barca strip without sponsors and the Baggies strip looked mint without one as well. The club simply can't afford not to have one but so thats a wee pipe dream on my part.

he fucked it up plain and simple for the 2nd. disney mean he's the devil - but call a spade a spade. i love this stoolfest. happy clappy's defend the player to the point he cured aids and the wankfucks gang rape the pleyer with words.

Du Du DuBordeaux

Hammell has scored hunners of free kicks for Motherwell. Remember that one where he burst the net against F.C. Knobfest? If I am right in saying, Hammell has struck the bar once in his Motherwell career with a Free Kick. Might be wrong, bring it on. Tell ye what. Fraser is that shite as a keeper, let him take all the free kicks like Higuita.

For balance, the defence was shite for both goals, but the keeper should stay on his line unless he knows he can win it. Fraser was culpable for the 2nd coz he was way of his line kidding on he was stevie wonder

Voted for Keith Lasley to wind up all the spanners on here that take fitba too serious

Bawbag 11 Goram Moutakil - James Okoli - Karl Ready- Partridge Tony Vaughan Malcolm - Curcic - John Davies Spencer - Halliday Wankfucks supreme

If I were you, I would just settle for seeing my own cock in the middle.

I once got a reachey off of giles. It was goooooood. Smell my flange

Here's what I will be sending around all and sundry on behalf of the Trust and it's members... To whom it may concern, Once again the SPL's 12 team format has caused an imbalance in home and away fixtures for 2 of the clubs in the division. Motherwell have been the club to draw the "Short Straw" in that we lose a home game this season. In a Luck of the Draw situation, someone in the top 6 had to lose a Home game. We would like to seek clarification from the SPL that all top 6 member clubs have been treated equally in this fixture selection and have not given an advantage in particular to Celtic or Rangers. Given that we have lost a home game, our members are angry that no concession was made to ensure one or both of our home games are scheduled for 3pm on a Saturday. We would like to seek clarification from both the SPL and Motherwell F.C. as to who's decision this was to schedule both our home games for ridiculous times outwith the normal SPL schedule of matches. Our main concern is that our Season Ticket members have, through no fault of their own, lost a home game from their allocation of matches thus devaluing their purchase. We would like to seek clarification from the SPL and Motherwell F.C. if any compensation for the season ticket holders will be forthcoming for this? We would suggest that if nothing is done, you will notice a further drop in season ticket sales for next season when our club can ill afford it. Finally, we are baffled by the decision to schedule the Hibs home game to clash with the upcoming General Election. Whilst most Motherwell supporters will be able to take their vote and get to the game, our opponents fans will face a struggle to register their vote between getting away from work and arriving at Fir Park. This will therefore further reduce any potential revenue Motherwell would receive from away ticket sales as many will simply stay away. This bizarre and baffling set of fixtures is just the latest in a long line of poor treatment of football supporters across Scotland and unless the SPL and it's member clubs take some urgent action on their priorities, the game will die.

Complete and utter bollocks. Dundee United game is the only one I'll make after the split.

Bramer bit of racism by Oor Wullie...

Dear all Firstly apologies for posting this in the Club Chat section and not the Trust section, I wanted maximum exposure for the post. The Trust are looking to undertake a number of projects in the coming months to help the club, the community and, most importantly, the Motherwell support. Discussions are on going with the club and a number of other organisations, so I am unable to provide the full details just now but I can tell you that we are looking into: - a project to improve certain facilities at Fir Park for the benefit of the supporters - a project to help a local youth group - a project to help community organisations in conjunction with the club We have begun discussions with a number of organisations to secure funding for these projects, with plenty of positive noises that the funding we require will be made available. If we are able to secure this funding, the one thing we are desperately short of at the moment is manpower. A few of our long standing board members have decided to take a step back from the Trust and will leave the board at the next AGM. In the meantime, they can only lend a limited amount of their time to help us. To that end, we are issuing this call to arms. A request for anyone who can spare around 2 hours oftime each month to work on specific projects, including fundraisers, with a further 2 hours needed for our monthly meeting. I would encourage anyone who is worried about the formal "board meetings" part to come forward and give it ago. Anyone who is willing to help, we would appreciate it if you could PM myself or Speedie. Our next fundraiser is planned to be a Race Night. We would hope volunteers would get involved straight away with the running of what will be another successful Trust event. Yours in Dosserdom, (Copyright fatcalf) Joe

All about the cost - nowt to do with the pitch as far as I'm concerned

I don't disagree that we have a better manager noo. In terms of good football but, I liked the ideas that Gannon tried to implement in our team... it's a pity we ain't Madrid but and didny have the players to make his ideas work. Just an example of this is the way he never let Ruddy punt the ball. He insisted that his team needed to be able to play the ball from the back, draw the opposition out and then get in behind them. That's why he didny like Craggs. We had some cracking games under him at the start and even some of the games like the draw at home to Utd people will easily forget because we couldny get the ball in the pokey. Fair enough, aside from Flamarturi there weren't many big scorelines, but his fitba was much easier on the eye than that of Broon, Malpas and Butcher in recent years. The only manager that has done a better job of full on entertaining fitba in the last 10 years was McGee in his first season when we set out a 4-3-3 every week. I really believe if he sorts his man management skills out, gets a job at a club with a decent budget and learns to shelve the passing game when his team are in front, he'll turn out to be a top top manager somewhere. Sadly I think he's proving to be far to arrogant at the Posh already to show any signs that he'll improve his man management.

Alright then, to bring the debate back on track then. My definition of footballing legend, someone that folk will talk about for years after he's gone. Going by that then, Corrigan is defo a legend. Malcolm may yet be a legend as well but more of a joke!

Gannon also signed Moutouakil as well so Craig Brown deserves extra kudos for punting him on his first day at the office. Gannon's football was sometimes better. Brown gets us results. Give me results any day!

Pretty sure it was nine, aye. I know a testimonial committee was being appointed so must have been nine or at very least high end of eight years.

A baw-hair off a proper testimonial. In this age of journeymen, indeed a legend!

My problem with all this pish is that the cost of it will be no doubt added to our ticket price, or will be financed by cuts elsewhere in our club. I can understand it's often not the club that make the rules, but I do feel the club should be making a stand against this type of enforced nonsense. You can minimise risks of incidents like chucking things onto the park, but you'll never get rid of the risk until you get rid of pies, bovril and stop anyone bringing anything into the stadium. I don't have any particular problems with the way the stewards have went about their business recently, but I do feel alarmed that there does seem to be more of them. My bigger worry is that IF (and it's a big if as the club have never confirmed it) they are planning to reduce the amount of police in favour of more stewards then the fans will suffer. The Police will more often than not take a common sense approach to situations within crowds as I am sure they will want neither the paperwork or the cost involved with an arrest, but they always have this in their locker to enforce good behaviour. As a regular concert goer and a regular attendee of away games to Ibrox and Parkhead, you always see one or two jumped up ego maniacs in stewarding teams that spoil things for people for no reason.

We spoke tae Colin about this yesterday. His idea is that we have a team event night that includes more than just Poker. Darts, Pool, Snooker and a Quiz. 6 to a team, £10 a skull. What's the thoughts on this then?