David

Along with a decline in the quality of the defence in general that's playing in front of him.

No, any club that sets a top-six finish as a "bare minimum" when, like it or not, we're operating on a bottom-six budget will continue to fall short of those demands fairly often and see the manager and coaching team constantly changed, which does nothing to help us progress. That said, "bare minimum" doesn't mean the manager is invincible—far from it. What it means is that we're not speculating with our financial outlay, and we're making sure that if the bare minimum is what we accomplish, we won't be facing financial ruin. In the previous five years, we've finished in the top six two times, which is a 40% success rate, so we're doing not too badly. And to think that 40% was attained by two managers who the usual suspects on here lambasted during their time at the club.

The club has made it perfectly clear that it budgets for 10th and a bit of a cup run, but in no way aims for 10th place as a target. However, while we should certainly be aiming for top six, to claim top six should be "the absolute minimum" isn't very realistic. And saying that we should stop "pleading poverty" is a bit off. We're not "pleading poverty," we're being realistic. We are where we are financially, and deciding that top six "at minimum" is our target won't change that. We aim for top six every season. That should not change. But if we start laying that down as a bare minimum to our manager then we'd be chopping and changing every second season or so. By your thinking we should be looking at sacking Kettlewell this summer on the back of an unsuccessful season?

The thing is, the mindset of a professional player is never that they're not good enough to be 1st choice. Kelly will go there with the belief that while signed as second choice, he has what it takes to be first choice. I'm not saying that will happen, but he'll likely not have the mentality of "go there, sit about and make some cash."

I mean, is he any worse than Bain? He's been Celtic's backup for quite some time now.

This isn't a debate. It's you being told that you can post whatever opinions you like, just like everyone else, but if you keep using the tone and patter you've been using in the past you'll end up running into problems. You've already had a warning previously. Screw the nut and be respectful when posting your opinions, simple as that.

Again, people are free to post the opinion they wish. As long as they do so without belittling others and making out that their opinion is all that matters. And likewise, others are free to debate those opinions. That's what it's all about, after all. In a few weeks, we'll have nothing to discuss except rumours and innuendo, so we may as well get used to it!

No, he's perfectly entitled to disagree with people's opinions on potential signings, but he doesn't need to be telling people that their opinions don't matter. Their opinions are just as valid as his. Look at the post below yours. Cameron disagrees with Hanlon as a signing and manages to convey that without acting like a knob about it. He can't expect his opinion or approach to be respected when he's showing so little of it in return.

I didn't think Theo Bair would enhance our squad, so maybe the "computer football" is a good shout! Seriously though, you don't have to agree with players that other members suggest, but don't be a prick. No one likes a prick.

100% agree. I can understand the players version sporting the sponsor, but having me stoat around Wishaw main street with their name on my chest isn't going to garner the company more business.

If this is us when we win 4-1 against the bottom of the table side, can you imagine the sheer anger and frustration if we ever won a cup or something again? This place would be unbearable.

Well, "wee Dougie" has spoken, everyone. Guess we should all just log out and come back when next season kicks off. Back to the "computer football" it is.

No one is telling you how to support the club. You can go along to games and moan like fuck in your seat if you like. But what people can do, on this forum at least, is call you out on your nonsense. As I've said before, you have the right to be negative on here as much as you like, so long as you don't break any forum rules. But just as equally, others have the right to call you on that so long as they don't break the rules. It really is that simple.

It depends on what Bournemouth would be willing to pay him, as he'd then find himself still playing football in Scotland close to family for a while, but on much higher wages than we could ever give him. Or Hibs could ever give him either, I'd reckon.

Can't complain or moan about the players or manager due to the sizeable win, so have to settle for the next best thing. Moan about the fans 😂

Abuse, constant or otherwise, shouldn't be condoned. Of course, we shouldn't expect fans to just sit there and applaud politely. It's an emotional sport, and fans make it what it is, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed, and for me, that line is asking myself, "Would I be happy to see a 19- or 20-year-old in my family treated that way by an adult?" Basically, if it's something someone would get into trouble for saying outside the confines of a football stadium, or something they wouldn't say to another guy in a different setting, it probably shouldn't be said at all. Voice frustration, anger, elation, whatever. But buying a ticket for a game doesn't come with the right to be a tosspot. Luckily, most people aren't like that. But the few who are should be ejected from stadiums and told to spend their weekends doing something else.

100% It's a chance for usually grown adult men to act in a manner they never would be allowed to outside a stadium. I think it's more a reflection on them than anything else.

Last time I checked teams don't get relegated on their managers win percentage. Points and league placings are what matter, and we're currently sitting 9th. And we're closer to 8th than 10th. That's a good job. Not a great job, but a good job, with room for improvement.

I think the most important takeaway from this ridiculous discussion is that Kettlewell doesn't fall into the above category. He's both qualified and good at his job.

I guess it's all about opinions. I don't think the documentary series really made that much of a dent. There's tons of that kind of thing over here already covering NFL especially. And a lot of MLS teams are doing regular episodes of that kind of thing on YouTube. I've been in two US states in the past two months, covering four or five different cities and I've yet to see anything more than Messi and Miami shirts in any places that sell "soccer" shirts. Never even seen a Wrexham shirt in the flesh.

Well, for a guy who seemingly forgets the basics, he's done reasonably well with the resources he has.

Wasn't that also down to the guys who actually bought the club though? Sure, people in the US know who Beckham is, but they know Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney more I'd think.

You said you were 'baffled' that Kettlewell doesn't see what the fans see. He's paid to see far beyond the basics of what we observe. We see Vale play for 90 minutes. We don't see him in training every day. Kettlewell has to focus on tactical adjustments, adaptability, and overall team dynamics. It could very well be the case that having Vale play up top alongside Bair affects the qualities that Bair brings to the team. It could see him less able to play his preferred game. It could also affect the performance of the midfield having two players so far forward, instead of one playing slightly behind and offering an outlet to our attacking midfielders? It could be the case that the management team have seen reasons to play Vale slightly behind Bair because it will affect how the opposition defence then goes on to try to deal with them during the game, pulling their defenders out of position and depending on those defenders qualities, maybe that allows Bair more space to get in behind? Now, I don't know if any of that is true, but it could all be a factor in his decision. I would wager that it's nowhere near as simple as we like to think, and I'd wager that whatever we see from the stands, Kettlewell and his team see that and much more.

Kettlewell doesn't see what the fans see, and that's a good thing. Because, for the most part, the fans know hee-haw about managing a football team. There's a reason why he's being paid to sit in the dugout while we're paying to sit in the stands.

I'd go Moses all day long. It hasn't really worked for Shaw at Fir Park. On Spittal, I don't see him being dropped.