David

You've not hit a nerve at all. I'm simply posting my opinion (I'd think that almost 40 years of attending games at Fir Park will allow me that going by your criteria?) that people like you are counter-productive rather than a positive in situations like this. If "all you thought" was what you initially posted then we wouldn't be engaged in this discussion. You didn't just say they needed to settle down and stop the nonsense (others have said that in this thread and I don't disagree with that viewpoint necessarily), you steamed in like you usually do calling them idiots and basically being a smug prick about their protest etc. Then proceeded to give it the big "i've been going to Fir Park for plenty more years than X,Y, & Z" and if it makes you a better supporter. It doesn't. Again, why do you assume the police have genuine reasons for using such heavy-handed tactics against football fans as dawn raids? We're not talking about a force that has a stellar reputation for being fair and reputable. Like I said, those kinds of dawn raid policing actions are normally reserved for incidents involving firearms, drugs, large sums of illicit money and gangland figures. The only exception to that is football fans and asylum seekers. Let me ask this. Do you personally think that someone who has been involved in a fight at the football, or who has taken a flare into a stadium should be subjected to the same policing tactics usually reserved for targeting individuals suspected of stockpiling firearms and large quantities of drugs?

If you read my post you'll see that I'm not "palming off" anything. What I'm saying is that we'd all do well to remember what we were like at that young age. Now, if anyone here was the type who doffed their cap to the good constables and have never thrown a punch in anger or in drunken silliness, fair enough. You're obviously a level above most. But for me, I think most of us have been there. And maybe it's just me, but I can also recall being a young lad and having condescending auld tits tutting and shaking their heads at me and my friends at the time. At no time ever did we take said condescending patter and holier-than-thou reprimanding and say "you know what? These moaning auld c*nts are right! We need to give our heads a shake and settle ourselves down." Basically, it's easy for some to post about how long they've been going to games, how they're so much more mature and level-headed, and how they're better then these lads who darken the reputation of our club and Scottish football by throwing punches and getting into fights. But just as it never worked with me, and anyone else who was ever young and a bit daft, it won't work here. That kind of patter will have zero positive effect. But that's not the intention of it. The intention is to put others down, while making yourself out to be a cut above. Which brings me to... And there we have it. "I HAVE BEEN GOING TO FIR PARK FOR PLENTY MORE YEARS THAN YOU/THEM/OTHER FOLK!" Honestly mate, I don't give a f*uck how long you've been going to Fir Park. That's not an accomplishment. All that means is you've been alive longer. It means nothing. I bet I've been going to Fir Park for longer than a lot of the lads in corner of the East Stand. Because I'm older than most of them. Doesn't mean I'm a better fan than they are, or somehow have a right to question them without response or reprisal. And you are entitled to your opinion. No one said you're not. But I'm also entitled to mines. And my opinion is that if you have so much to say on the matter, you should be more constructive and offer your undoubted years of experience of going to Fir Park and do something to help. Offer guidance. Maybe try to be a positive force on this occasion? Or you could just sit there behind your keyboard being a smug tw*t while sneering down at mostly young lads who, like most football fans throughout the country and indeed the world, are treated like absolute shite by police. No one is saying they're perfect, but the truth is I can go out on a Saturday night in Glasgow, get into an altercation, chin someone (or more likely nowadays, they chin me) and maybe get a knock at my door from the cops a few days later. Well deserved of course, but I doubt very much that they'll be forcing in my door in the wee hours of the morning as if I'm Pablo f*cking Escobar. That only happens to football fans. There's this weird situation where you can get into a scrap in a pub and face a certain level of policing, but if you happen to be within a certain radius of a football ground and look and dress a certain way and do the same thing you're treated far worse. But you already know that. Most football fans with a set of working eyeballs do. So yeah, these lads aren't angels. And I daresay some of them probably deserved to have the book thrown at them for their actions, but I would hope we can all see that the reactions of the police is simply not appropriate for the alleged crime. There's been far too many instances up and down the country where the cops have been caught acting out of line with football fans for anyone to palm fans complaints off as "well, they're young and daft so f*ck them, they deserve it." And you can piss off with your "perhaps previous dealings?????" shite as well. So what exactly warrants a dawn raid then? For the most part they're seemingly utilised in instances where the police have suspected and indeed collected large amounts of drugs, guns, money, been looking to capture suspected murderers and leading gangland figures. But apart from those instances they're also used regularly to hammer asylum seekers, and football fans, which kind of tells us all we need to know. How anyone can think that a football fan, even one who's been involved in a punch-up or a fight in a pub, is deserving of a dawn raid is mind-boggling. The same goes for asylum seekers. Unless they're believed to be really dangerous, or holding weapons etc of course. And let's be honest, much of the "support" from those who are hammering them now has always been grudging at best. What I'd say is, anyone who thinks that a young lad involved in football related shenanigans, be it fighting or whatever, is deserving of a dawn raid needs to take a long, hard look at themselves. Like I said, if they're scrapping and getting into bother then aye, send the cops round to pick them up the same way they would someone who did that on a Friday night in the town. Don't treat them like they're serious criminals holding firearms or stockpiling drugs.

If he doesn't fancy the abuse or threats then maybe the best idea is to not act like a Billy Big Bollocks behind a keyboard posting what amounts to holier-than-thou smug nonsense? I have zero skin in the game. I don't know any of the young lads up in the corner, and I don't know the Motherwell employee mentioned, but what I do know is that I'll always back a fellow rank & file supporter over the police unless there's evidence of a truly heinous crime having been committed. My opinion and observation is that there's far too many older fans who are quick to sneer and belittle a group of young lads who add a whole lot of atmosphere and positives to the club. Are they perfect? Of course not. Who wasn't full of piss & vinegar at their age? Especially after a few beers? I seriously doubt anyone here can claim they didn't get up to daft shit when they were young. I'm also old enough and wise enough to know how the police in Scotland operates. Which gives me enough reason to side with the supporters even more.

Yup. He uses it as an excuse to pick the guys he doesn't like, for whatever reason.

Why don't you join and then tell them all that in person?

Wait, what? This is surely concerning, no? Why are we offering concessions to a group of fans who routinely treat our fans like absolute scum?

Lawrence Shankland, for one. He picks up "a little injury" and misses, what? One game? And Clarke says that influenced his decision. Shankland was back playing this weekend! However, Lyndon Dykes, who was actually in hospital with pneumonia, missed almost two months of football, comes back and plays less than an hour and gets picked? He also keeps picking this Jacob Brown lad. 5 goals in 33 league games this season. Why even bother? He's never going to be of a high enough quality to really make an impact with us. He's not a young kid, he's 25. Where's Kevin Nisbet? I bet he'd have got picked if he'd made that move to Millwall.

So, it seems there's going to be a protest of sorts from a section of the fan group at the start of the Rangers game. For those who aren't up to speed, this is the general gist of it... It looks like this is set to rumble on a fair bit before a conclusion is reached.

If there's one thing that made me laugh about the whole thing was Clarke in his press conference saying he had three good keepers now, and that it was on them all to fight for that starting spot. He kept a straight face when he said it as well.

Kelly has been called up around 17 times I think, and has never been close to getting a cap. Ever. Meaningless friendlies? Nope, he can sit on the bench. Even when he was doing really well for us. Look at the squad Clarke selects. He's a moron.

Let's be honest here, in this scenario Scotland is basically the drunk fat bird who some guy settles for at the end of a night in Motherwell Point because he knows the younger, fitter lassie he's had his eye on all night isn't interested. I could understand Clarke going to Gunn cap in hand if we were talking about a proper top-level keeper who would make a real difference, but we're really not. As far as Kelly goes, he would actually have had more chance of nabbing a few Scotland caps by this stage if he'd turned down the chance of regular first-team football at Motherwell and stayed at QPR to be their second choice and league cup goalkeeper, as we all know Clarke has a hard-on for anyone who's even close to the first team of a club down south. At one point Nathan Patterson had more international caps than he did first-team appearances for any club in his career!

Aye, but he's on £10K a week under his current contract. That doesn't mean he's going to be earning that in any deal he signs as a now 34 year old player, does it? He'll have offers on the table for sure, but there will be a lot of factors involved, such as his family being located in Central Scotland for the past five years now and so on. It wouldn't be a "cut" in wages as some have said, because he isn't deciding to come to us mid-contract for less money. His current deal is expiring, so it'll be fresh terms based on his age, fitness, and how he's done in the past year since he signed his extension with Rangers.

Where he will undoubtedly spend all of his time sitting on the bench. I think Clarke's level of belief and trust in him was shown as he desperately tried to find someone, anyone with a hint of Scottish ancestry who he could choose ahead of Kelly and Clark. Even someone who's knocked us back in favour of England will do. If I was Kelly I'd honestly think about calling it a day on international football. There has to be a point in time where he starts to think that instead of sitting on his arse in Austria, the Faroe Islands, Turkey or Armenia watching Scotland play he could use that free time away from club football to spend more time with his family.

Well, yes. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered saying it.

Was he badly advised? I heard that he was advised to look at all the options and he personally decided to not make the move down south and instead stay in Scotland with Celtic, closer to family etc.

As much as it's often seen as a defeatist attitude, I view anything we get from either of these two as a bonus.

Casey is contracted until the end of the season, and Butcher has a deal until the end of next season.

You're assuming that he was good enough back then? When he went to QOTS last season was he looking head and shoulders above the rest of the players there? And the competition in the Championship? I don't recall much demand for him to be our starting full back this season, and I don't recall any shock or dismay when he was loaned out to Cove either. I remember a few voices saying he should be kept as back-up, but that's hardly the kind of chat surrounding a player who's a stick-on to become a regular in Serie A. It was obvious very early on that Ramsey and Hickey were top drawer talent. The closest we've had to that was Turnbull. I have a feeling that Johnston has always been viewed as someone who could potentially go on and become a player, but who was never the type who was turning heads early on. Sure, he's done pretty well since January, but I'm not sure he was that good that the club should have been offering him the type of money he couldn't refuse a year ago or so. It could be that he's suddenly found his stride in the last six months or so. That happens, and he now has every right to hold off on a new deal and see what's out there. Or, it could be that he never intended to sign a new deal with us at all? Maybe he's always planned to ride this initial deal out and then see what's on offer? There's a whole lot of variables involved in these situations, so it's unfair to blame the club without knowing how it has all played out.

What if said player doesn't want to be "tied down" by the club?

The mental thing is, we finished 5th last season on 46 points, while the season before St Johnstone finished 5th on 45 points. The season or two before the Covid early stoppage the required points total for 5th was in the 50's.

I don't know why people assume the club can just "tie a player down" with a deal, as if it's automatic that said player will accept the contract on offer? If Johnston has always shown the potential that some are claiming on here, it could be that he was always going to let his current deal run almost to expiration and explore his options? And if he hasn't always shown that potential then why would the club be rushing to "tie down" someone who may not even make it?

I assume MJC is saying that with his tongue firmly in cheek.

It's a strange one, as he's hit double digits in appearances in every season he's played since 2013, bouncing between League One and League Two, with seven consecutive seasons in League One, which isn't a bad level at all so he's clearly no mug. I just don't think it's worked for him up here, but hopefully a League two club down south sees him as someone who can do a turn for them and offer to take him off our hands.

It's that time again, and as we head towards the end of the season we have the following players loans ending or out of contract unless I'm mistaken (please let me know if any of these have changed): Max Johnston Dan Casey Dean Cornelius Sean Goss Mikael Mandron Wider squad discussions Goalkeeper - Liam Kelly's deal is up in May of 2024, which means we either sell him this summer for maximum profit, or we get a lesser fee in January, or lose him for nothing at the end of next season. If he's not interested in signing a new deal then a decision has to be made. The same goes for Aston Oxborough. He's also out of contract with us in May 2024, so a decision will have to be made there as well. I have a feeling if we can secure a halfway decent fee for Kelly we may see him move on. Although, I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him sign a new deal as he's a pretty solid keeper at our level for the most part. Defence - With O'Donnell, Carroll, McGinn, Johnston and Casey all out of contract, and James Furlong's loan spell ending we could see some big changes at the back next season. From our current squad we'll have Ricki Lamie, Bevis mugabi, Nathan McGinley, and Shane Blaney still on the books. Out of those who's contracts are expiring I'd definitely look to get Max Johnston on a new deal, and I wouldn't be disappointed to see Casey stay. Undecided on McGinn. I think O'Donnell needs a fresh challenge and move will do him some good, while Jake Carroll may be best suited to moving on also. Of those we still have contracted I wouldn't be too disappointed to see any of them move on. Perhaps Blaney deserves some time to show what he can do, but the rest have been part of the reason we are where we are, be it through sub-standard performances or lengthy injury spells. Midfield - Cornelius and Goss are two players who haven't had to look for for their critics this season, and even though Goss especially seems to have hit a wee patch of good form since Kettlewell came in, I'm not convinced as yet. If we lost either of them or both I certainly wouldn't be upset. At the same time, if Goss maintains his uptick in performances under Kettlewell I'd be happy to see him stay. Cornelius is a difficult one. There's always that slight favouritism to someone who's a fan of the club, but he's in his early twenties now and is no longer a kid. He needs to really step up at this point, either with us or another club. We also have Barry Maguire coming back after his loan spell, and he's got another year on his deal. He's another one who has to either step up and and show he can make the cut or move on and try elsewhere. Forwards - If we don't renew any of the expiring contracts we'll be left with Van Veen, Danzaki, Josh Morris, and Connor Shields. Let that sink in for minute. I have to believe that Josh Morris will quietly be allowed to head back down south, which leaves us with very limited options up front and some recruits undoubtedly needed. The players who we'd still have under contract are as follows: Liam Kelly (contract expires May 2024) Aston Oxborough (contract expires May 2024) Ricki Lamie (contract expires May 2024) Bevis Magabi (contract expires May 2024) Nathan McGinley (contract expires May 2024) Shane Blaney (contract expires June 2025) Blair Spittal (contract expires June 2024) Callum Slattery (contract expires May 2024) Barry Maguire (contract expires May 2024) Ross Tierney (contract expires June 2025) Calum Butcher (contract expires June 2024) Kevin Van Veen (contract expires May 2024) Riku Danzaki (contract expires June 2025) Josh Morris (contract expires May 2024) Connor Shields (contract expires May 2024) There's a whole load of youth players who's contracts are up as well, and who have been out on loan. I'm not going to add them to this discussion.