Motherwell v St Johnstone 09/12/2023

[dennyc]

49 minutes ago, Big Stall said:

I don't think anyone expects Ox to be an exceptional keeper. I think what those of us who are calling for him is purely because Kelly has been horrific in the last few months and if you are going to pay a fee for a reserve keeper then he must have something about him. The reserve keepers job is to keep the main keeper on his toes and be ready to push for a place. Competition is what is needed and if a spell on the sidelines gets Kelly back up and firing then even better.

The absolute nonsense I have been reading upthread that we can't drop the goalie incase it hurts his or anyone elses feelings is head scratching. Every Keeper - infact every player in every team should know that if they do not perform then someone else gets a chance. If Portugal can do it with Ronaldo then we can certainly do it with Kelly.

Kelly has not been horrific. He is as frustrating as hell and has made mistakes just like every other player. But less than some, even yesterday. He has also made outstanding saves which contributed to our pitiful points total of late. But let's just ignore that fact.

And nobody is saying he should not be dropped in case his feelings are hurt. As Captain and a leader and spokesman for the squad he brings qualities over and above goalkeeping, like unifying the squad which was sadly lacking under our previous managers. Also, in most folks minds, he is currently the best option we have. Changing goalkeepers at this stage could well push us closer to Championship football.

Or if you really want to drop every player who regularly has "horrific" moments during matches, then I take it you will accept a team full of youth players as per the bench yesterday. Until they have a poor game. Not one player has turned in consistently good, 90 minute performances this season. In my opinion our troubles are much more serious than a goalkeeper who is going through a tough spell.  

[Big Stall]

33 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Kelly has not been horrific. He is as frustrating as hell and has made mistakes just like every other player. But less than some, even yesterday. He has also made outstanding saves which contributed to our pitiful points total of late. But let's just ignore that fact.

And nobody is saying he should not be dropped in case his feelings are hurt. As Captain and a leader and spokesman for the squad he brings qualities over and above goalkeeping, like unifying the squad which was sadly lacking under our previous managers. Also, in most folks minds, he is currently the best option we have. Changing goalkeepers at this stage could well push us closer to Championship football.

Or if you really want to drop every player who regularly has "horrific" moments during matches, then I take it you will accept a team full of youth players as per the bench yesterday. Until they have a poor game. Not one player has turned in consistently good, 90 minute performances this season. In my opinion our troubles are much more serious than a goalkeeper who is going through a tough spell.  

Complete pish.

In a team, everyone has to pull their weight. If they don't, they get replaced. Thats the way it works. Kelly continues to make mistakes. A spell on the bench is what is required, even if it is only a couple of games. That is the point of competition for places.

He shouldnt get a free pass just because he is captain. Again, Ronaldo was dropped during the world cup! We can certainly take Kelly out of the headlights for a few SPFL games. As an experienced player he knows full well that is an option and should be able to take it on the chin. If he cant accept it, and decided to throw the toys out the pram & fracture the dressing room, then we would be better off without him.

[David]

2 hours ago, Big Stall said:

I think what those of us who are calling for him is purely because Kelly has been horrific in the last few months and if you are going to pay a fee for a reserve keeper then he must have something about him.

Horrific? Seriously? 😂

Aye, his form hasn't been great, but he's not been "horrific." I think some folk are getting carried away now.

2 hours ago, Big Stall said:

The absolute nonsense I have been reading upthread that we can't drop the goalie incase it hurts his or anyone elses feelings is head scratching. Every Keeper - infact every player in every team should know that if they do not perform then someone else gets a chance. If Portugal can do it with Ronaldo then we can certainly do it with Kelly.

If you think what I and others have been saying about not dropping someone like Kelly is all about "not hurting someone's feelings" then you're not reading it right. Simple as that.

[couttsy]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

Complete pish.

In a team, everyone has to pull their weight. If they don't, they get replaced. Thats the way it works. Kelly continues to make mistakes. A spell on the bench is what is required, even if it is only a couple of games. That is the point of competition for places.

He shouldnt get a free pass just because he is captain. Again, Ronaldo was dropped during the world cup! We can certainly take Kelly out of the headlights for a few SPFL games. As an experienced player he knows full well that is an option and should be able to take it on the chin. If he cant accept it, and decided to throw the toys out the pram & fracture the dressing room, then we would be better off without him.

You start your post with "complete pish" and then go on to compare a multi Ballon d'Or winning striker playing in a very strong Portugal team, with a goalkeeper playing for a very poor Motherwell side in a crisis! This place gets crazier by the day....

The big difference with goalkeepers compared with outfield players is that you can't just keep changing them. What if Oxborourgh comes in and makes a couple of errors in his first game, do you go back to Kelly? Or do we see who the third keeper is and try them like you would with an outfield player? I know that at some point even a goalkeeper will need dropped, however I just don't think we're at that point yet, especially when next up we have a very inexperienced, untested rookie. 

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

Complete pish.

In a team, everyone has to pull their weight. If they don't, they get replaced. Thats the way it works. Kelly continues to make mistakes. A spell on the bench is what is required, even if it is only a couple of games. That is the point of competition for places.

He shouldnt get a free pass just because he is captain. Again, Ronaldo was dropped during the world cup! We can certainly take Kelly out of the headlights for a few SPFL games. As an experienced player he knows full well that is an option and should be able to take it on the chin. If he cant accept it, and decided to throw the toys out the pram & fracture the dressing room, then we would be better off without him.

Dundee United mucked about with their keepers last season. Replaced their first choice, who lost 11 goals in 2 games, with a guy who lost 12 in the next 2. Then brought in another who lost 4 on his debut and was immediately dropped.

Without having the first clue how good Oxborough is, no one can be certain dropping Kelly is a wise move.

[Big Stall]

Its quite simple. If Oxborough is not good enough to slot in for a badly underfiring Kelly then we need a new GK signing in January

[David]

Just now, Big Stall said:

Its quite simple. If Oxborough is not good enough to slot in for a badly underfiring Kelly then we need a new GK signing in January

Well, the fact that he's hardly kicked a ball in 18 months would suggest exactly that. Chalk another great find up for the recruitment team!

[Big Stall]

3 minutes ago, couttsy said:

You start your post with "complete pish" and then go on to compare a multi Ballon d'Or winning striker playing in a very strong Portugal team, with a goalkeeper playing for a very poor Motherwell side in a crisis! This place gets crazier by the day....

 

Yes, to show that if one of the greatest players to ever play the game (and team captain) can be dropped in a world cup, then we can certainly drop Liam Kelly

[David]

4 minutes ago, Big Stall said:

Yes, to show that if one of the greatest players to ever play the game (and team captain) can be dropped in a world cup, then we can certainly drop Liam Kelly

Yes, but wasn't that due to his attitude? If Kelly had been petulant, or had been showing a stinking attitude then I'm sure many of us would think differently.

But he hasn't. He's just suffering a dip in form. If Ronaldo had just suffered a dip in form he wouldn't have been dropped.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, Big Stall said:

Complete pish. 

In a team, everyone has to pull their weight. If they don't, they get replaced. Thats the way it works. Kelly continues to make mistakes. A spell on the bench is what is required, even if it is only a couple of games. That is the point of competition for places.

He shouldnt get a free pass just because he is captain. Again, Ronaldo was dropped during the world cup! We can certainly take Kelly out of the headlights for a few SPFL games. As an experienced player he knows full well that is an option and should be able to take it on the chin. If he cant accept it, and decided to throw the toys out the pram & fracture the dressing room, then we would be better off without him.

Talking of pish! So they all should be dropped by your criteria?

Maybe you should read what folk actually say.

But since you mention Ronaldo. Yes he was dropped. For a proven, younger player who scored a hat trick and is valued at Millions. Pity we don't have such riches to pick from. Attitude played a part, but at Ronaldo's age any outfield player needs a rest from time to time. There is a reason he could not play every game for Man Utd and eventually took the Saudi pennies. But go ahead, compare Kelly to Ronaldo if it makes sense to you.

[Big Stall]

1 hour ago, David said:

Yes, but wasn't that due to his attitude? If Kelly had been petulant, or had been showing a stinking attitude then I'm sure many of us would think differently.

But he hasn't. He's just suffering a dip in form. If Ronaldo had just suffered a dip in form he wouldn't have been dropped.

You should be dropped when your form drops. You dont get a free pass. If we have a team who think they are untouchable regardless of the performance they put in then we are in real bother. Its the same in any job!

And Ronaldo was dropped for his performances. They realised his role was not helping the team. His attitude then sunk when he was dropped.

[Big Stall]

52 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Talking of pish! So they all should be dropped by your criteria?

 

To be honest, yes.

 

Mika aside, we have a very poor. Piss poor squad of players

[grizzlyg]

I think maybe taking captaincy off Liam might help him and allow him to concentrate on just his goalkeeping. Give captaincy to Butcher or back to SOD. Cue folk saying WTF but SOD experienced pro and not as bad as he is made out. Makes mistakes like everyone else.  I genuinely feel the players are united and behind SK but results need to improve and quickly 

[dennyc]

12 minutes ago, Big Stall said:

To be honest, yes.

 

Mika aside, we have a very poor. Piss poor squad of players

Oh that we were able to. The bench line up on Sunday shocked me.

Mika is a shining light and maybe the fact such a raw youngster stands out speaks volumes for where we are at. He would be even better if did not have to carry the rest of the team on his shoulders. And was able to devote all his energy to what he excels at. 
Whatever happens this season I expect to see a massive turnover in the Summer. Finances will likely dictate the quality of those changes. If only Turnbull could move for a huge fee in January the add ons might enable us to address issues earlier. (Clutching at straws there) Without that bonus I cannot see a January recruitment like last season. 
 

[Kmcalpin]

It was interesting  yesterday that there was a tackle on Bair not dissimilar to the one for which Paton was red carded against Dundee. He just won the race to the ball and the St Johnstone defender caught him high and momentarily late - no malice intended. The referee waved play on  - no foul. Maybe the difference was that Bair didn't roll about on the ground. 

[El Grew]

27 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Without that bonus I cannot see a January recruitment like last season

I really hope so because the majority of those recruited were bomb scares!

[grizzlyg]

39 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Oh that we were able to. The bench line up on Sunday shocked me.

Mika is a shining light and maybe the fact such a raw youngster stands out speaks volumes for where we are at. He would be even better if did not have to carry the rest of the team on his shoulders. And was able to devote all his energy to what he excels at. 
Whatever happens this season I expect to see a massive turnover in the Summer. Finances will likely dictate the quality of those changes. If only Turnbull could move for a huge fee in January the add ons might enable us to address issues earlier. (Clutching at straws there) Without that bonus I cannot see a January recruitment like last season. 
 

Shocked me also....the game was yesterday!! 🤣🤣🤣, sorry pal.. couldn't resist it

[dennyc]

9 minutes ago, El Grew said:

I really hope so because the majority of those recruited were bomb scares!

Butcher, Casey and Furlong included? I thought those three saved our season along with Van Veen.

But I agree the other signings were rotten.  I was saying I did not think we had the scope to sign a shitload of players in the hope that 3 or 4 worked out. 

[dennyc]

5 minutes ago, grizzlyg said:

Shocked me also....the game was yesterday!! 🤣🤣🤣, sorry pal.. couldn't resist it

Ouch. Obviously affected me more than I realised. 

[joewarkfanclub]

13 hours ago, David said:

Well, just like you and every other Motherwell fan, I've not seen much of Oxborough. But, the manager and the coaching team has. They see him every single day. And over the 18 months that he's been at the club he's rarely kicked a ball, which tells me all I need to know. I think when his contract ends he'll quietly disappear into obscurity.

Would I drop Kelly? The answer is no. Because the one thing the manager has going for him right now is that the team is still together and fighting for him. Dropping Kelly, the captain, and clearly someone who is well-liked and influential in the dressing room for a keeper who has hardly played a game for us could affect that dressing room dynamic. 

Fans don't really think about that aspect of the choices a manager has to make. They just think "player A has been rubbish of late, punt him out the team, and get someone new in."

It's never that simple, sadly. The decisions made will affect the moral and general vibe of the team and could turn players against the manager, and dropping your captain is always going to be a huge move. 

Dropping Kelly right now wouldn't be for "a wee spell." Doing that would basically signal the end of his Motherwell career. He wouldn't be coming back from that in all likelihood. 

You'd be stripping him of the captaincy, dropping him, and opening a can of worms in the wider squad that I think could cause more issues.

It's a tough situation, because Kelly is definitely going through a rough spell. 

The manager has one of two choices to make.

Drop Kelly, strip him of the captaincy, bring in a keeper that neither he nor the manager before him has considered anywhere near good enough to this point, and risk the dynamic of the dressing room being turned on its head, possibly against the manager. 

Or stick with Kelly, and gamble that his form will return. By doing so the manager would win the support of the players and the captain by showing that he is the type of gaffer who sticks by his players when they're going through a tough spell. That action would ensure that the squad keep fighting for him I think.

So, for me, it's option number 2. And I know many fans won't agree, which is fine.

I actually agree with the logic of all of that.

But its still a tough watch to see someone who has been such a reliable performer for us having a mare every week.

At what point do you think the player needs to be protected?

[grizzlyg]

The Kelly situation is a tricky one. I get the he shouldn't be dropped as captain and not good for squad but at same time if you had a striker that played 20 games and hadnt scored would you keep playing him?

What really grinds me is the booing of players.  I ain't an Oli Shaw fan but fact a few booed him when he came on yesterday just beggars belief 

[joewarkfanclub]

PS our squad is not utter shite, pish or any other adjective folk want to label it.

The St Mirren, Rangers and Celtic performances only a few weeks ago showed they can play in the right system and when their confidence hasnt been eroded to almost zero.

Of course we lost all of those games and without going over old ground re summer signings, we were playing with our 5th choice striker at that point.

This CAN be turned around, but it will take some good decision making from the manager interms of team selection and tactics, better decision making on the field by the players, and dare I say a wee bit of luck

We've contributed to our own downfall on this run no doubt, but we havent been able to catch a break either. 

 

[smiddy]

7 hours ago, star sail said:

I was a GK myself when I played football ( although never professionally) and I always used to get frustrated when I watched outfield players make several mistakes in a game ( misplaced passes, missed tackles, poor control) only for the finger to be pointed when one goal- keeping mistake lead to a goal. It is in the nature of their positioning on the park that makes their mistakes so much more notable.

I agree with David. Kelly has been an excellent servant to the club. He is an international goalkeeper for a reason and he will have been made captain because of the positive influence he has on the squad. There is far more good than bad to consider dropping him. It will be tough for Kelly just now and he himself might actually welcome a break. Hopefully his relationship with Kettlewell is strong enough that they could have that conversation if need be.

I think he is being judged harshly at the moment. Yesterday was a mistake that on another day he may have got away with. The 3rd goal at RC I thought was actually a descent reactive save. He was just unlucky that the ball landed at the feet of an RC player. Again on another night he may have got away with it.

well SS if you were a goalie yourself then from your under 8s team you will have been told to push the ball away from goals and not to the feet of on rushing forward   that right ,? i also speak from experience

[SteelmaninOZ]

7 hours ago, Big Stall said:

I don't think anyone expects Ox to be an exceptional keeper. I think what those of us who are calling for him is purely because Kelly has been horrific in the last few months and if you are going to pay a fee for a reserve keeper then he must have something about him. The reserve keepers job is to keep the main keeper on his toes and be ready to push for a place. Competition is what is needed and if a spell on the sidelines gets Kelly back up and firing then even better.

The absolute nonsense I have been reading upthread that we can't drop the goalie incase it hurts his or anyone elses feelings is head scratching. Every Keeper - infact every player in every team should know that if they do not perform then someone else gets a chance. If Portugal can do it with Ronaldo then we can certainly do it with Kelly.

Aye let’s see what happens with the Ox in goal. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

Mika to the rescue again says Goggsy99