Deaddogman Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 ok I don't really care what the minority shout about, the bottom line is that Our troops were sent into Iraq to do a job, they did it and now they have left . I supported them then and I support them now and applaud them. I observed the silences on remembrance Sunday and on the 11th. and have done regularly since 1964 I am closer to the end of my life than most of you are from the beginning of yours but in my time I have seen military service in Belize, through the Falklands war and The Kuwait conflict I just hope that our troops are not required to come and defend you, at any time ,you'll probably turn your back on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Irish Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Once freedom of speech goes we are in a very sorry position, so while I applauded yesterday and respect the tough conditions many soldiers find themselves in, its actually completely necessary to debate and oppose the veneration of the army, if we don't then we slip further down the slope towards authoritarian government. Preserving free speech and allowing rival opinions, even extreme ones, does more to maintain the survival of our freedom than any army - without it the military quickly become oppressors rather than protectors. This for me is one of the most important points made on here. Motherwell fans should be proud there is an actual debate on this matter. A debate like this would simply not be possible on the football messageboards of many English clubs, anyone arguing against special treatment for servicemen would be simply shouted down, abused and threatened. For me, the issue about this current media bandwagon of "heroes" that is undepinning a lot of this positive discrimination for servicemen stuff is that you cannot morally seperate the personal courage displayed in individual situations by our servicemen and the concrete effect of their actions. The actions of our servicemen in the Middle East has been little short of disastrous for the peoples of the Middle East, untold deaths, suffering, collapsed infrastructure, political chaos. And it's been disastrous for our security here too, creating numerous enemies for us across the globe. This isn't "heroism". It's misguided, naive blundering - and that's using the kindest possible words for the actions of our servicemen. It's simply wrong that when we have so many sections of our society carrying out socially beneficial dangerous work like firemen and police officers that they get ignored yet a group of workers who have been used as blunt tools by a lying and manipulative establishment get a pat on the back by football clubs. Some might argue, calm down, it's harmless, a bit of happy-clappy publicity for communities. But I would question how much this propaganda about "heroes" is being used to bolster support for our continuing disastrous occupation of foreign countries. The WMD argument failed, the biggest electoral fraud in history by the Afghan president our troops are helping to prop up, well, that's another pretty embarrassing one - so what's left for the government to churn out, ah yes, some sentimentalised mush about squaddie and his hardships. Yeah, they'll buy that and the entire warmongering show can be kept on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good post London_Irish. There are far more deserving people in society than soldiers of schemes such as this. However not just the most commonly cited one's like police officers and firemen, but also the more hidden, less championed people such as carers. I'd also argue that people who are running youth clubs for disadvantaged/disabled kids (largley out of their own pocket) would be more deserving of initiatives such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 The Left wing really do have their claws in deep on here don't they? Left wing extremists are still extremists mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 The Left wing really do have their claws in deep on here don't they? Left wing extremists are still extremists mind. Don't tell me we're back on about Jim O'Brien again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Don't tell me we're back on about Jim O'Brien again He's really quite pish int'he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Wouldn't go that far, but he is extreme!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 But I would question how much this propaganda about "heroes" is being used to bolster support for our continuing disastrous occupation of foreign countries. The WMD argument failed, the biggest electoral fraud in history by the Afghan president our troops are helping to prop up, well, that's another pretty embarrassing one - so what's left for the government to churn out, ah yes, some sentimentalised mush about squaddie and his hardships. Yeah, they'll buy that and the entire warmongering show can be kept on the road. Continous? WTF? Afghanistan is the only "disastrous" one - so one out of 25 Nations where our armed forces are based = continous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Good post London_Irish. There are far more deserving people in society than soldiers of schemes such as this. However not just the most commonly cited one's like police officers and firemen, but also the more hidden, less championed people such as carers. I'd also argue that people who are running youth clubs for disadvantaged/disabled kids (largley out of their own pocket) would be more deserving of initiatives such as this. Yeah but helping disabled kids doesn't mean you might be shot by a sniper or blown up does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Continous? WTF? Afghanistan is the only "disastrous" one - so one out of 25 Nations where our armed forces are based = continous Ok so Iraq should be past tense but it and Afghanistan have been disastrious but of the rest of the places you are referring to there is a difference being based somewhere and occupying it in the manner of those two high profile cases. Although Diego Garica is an interesting one, given we forcibly removed the population to allow the US to use the Islands as a jointly run military base. We'd have to ask the populations of the rest of these places if they are pleased or concerned by the presence of our troops I daresay different places would give different responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Anyway enough from me on this issue, been round in circles on this one before.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldel Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don’t agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn’t agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocelot Groomin' Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Did we not let in the flute band guys for nothing? They dress like soldiers (allbeit rather camp 18th Century ones) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Tried that already, he disnae listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankles Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don't agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn't agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Well said my man.All this bickering about who is more deserving of a ticket,this one ,that one is as bad as the pre Nancy ticket allocation debate. we could all put someone forward who we thought should be more deserving but the fact is these are fellow well fans who are facing difficult times so if they get a free ticket, so what, get over it! Well Done to the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Personally, I don't agree with our troops being in Afghanistan and I didn't agree with them being in Iraq, however those members of the armed forces who will hopefully benefit from this scheme are not responsible for Government policy. They are merely doing the job they have been asked or rather ordered to do. They are doing so in extremely difficult circumstances which have seen many killed or injured. The politicians deserve to be challenged and questioned regarding our involvement in these conflicts, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen deserve our support and respect. Something sadly lacking here. Without doubt the best post in this whole sorry debate. +1. Those guys and gals did not ask to go in ther and die in their hundreds, but they go in and do their jobs to the best of their abilities. I have known a number of guys in the forces and not one of them agree with our political masters and neither do I but they get on with it. The only people not doing their job is the sorry excuse for voters out there that blindly vote for these clowns every 4-5 years and then complain about their policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fi2810 Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Yeah but helping disabled kids doesn't mean you might be shot by a sniper or blown up does it? Yeah but they know that when they sign up to the army. A point too is that the most deserving cases eg firemen, charity workers, nurses, carers, youth club organisers don't see themselves as heroes and would be embarassed by being publicly hailed as such. They see it as what they do, end of story. And they would see the end result of what they do as the reward for their efforts. They are the ones that really deserve the free season tickets. People who help disabled kids are happy to see the quality of the kids' lives made better. And if they are doing the work in some other countries, yes there is a chance they might get shot at or encounter landmines or have some other s*** happen to them. And they don't get paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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