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Which is why they're likely enjoying watching the Motherwell fanbase lose their shit over our current plight less than ten games into the season. It provides an opportunity for them to point and say "Ah, you were lucky last year! JBA is obviously a great manager, and you lot just lucked out in getting him. We were correct though, and the answer is to end this silly 'experiment' with the foreigner who has never played the game and get back to reality!"

At the beginning of this season, we were pinging in crosses and shooting from the edge of the box. I’d like to see us start doing both again.

O’Donnel or JK at right back for me. JKL along with Moorman in the middle. as soon as Preistman is available i‘d put him in for hodge. Preistman amd Fadinger play well together. Hodge I think is more Suited to playing when we are ahead. I’d start Said again amd keep Lowry. Paulsen JK. JKL Moorman Longelo Preistman Fadinger JT Lowry Said PH I suppose Hodge starts if Preistman not back.

I see Johnny K is available for selection on Saturday. I wonder if we will see him make an appearance or whether SOD goes to RB with Sparrow in front of him. We certainly need to strengthen the RHS of the pitch somehow. We cant be go into Saturday as wide open as we were last week.

I see Hibernian are taking decisive action with some of their support for allegedly misbehaving, i wonder if it will catch on. Hibs ban fans group for three games after disorder - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cmde8dx2263lo

I am one of AJ biggest defenders but even i would question him if he started Vogt. Personally Sparrow needs rested also

Exactly why he needs to get the team selection and tactics right on Saturday. Trust has to be earned before it is given.

True, but do the players trust him? I'm sure several are pissed off after Saturday.

If your giving meagre praise in victory, hopefully same in defeat? We win as a team and lose as a team

I really hope not. That really would be verging on insanity. We need a result. He needs to play the players that have shown him he can trust.

I dont think we are actually miles apart in our viewpoints. I support a lot of what you are saying about the fans, lack of patience or knowledge about what may or may not be going on behind the scenes.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him start again on Saturday, with Sparrow dropped to the bench instead. "Don't back down, double down"

I think 20 - 30 minutes as a sub, and if successful putting him in against Kilmarnock away might have been kinder/less precipitous. But aye, its hard to see a way back for him now. I hope Im wrong. I really want him to make the grade.

Ok. When Wellfan, Kmcalpin and joewarkfanclub collectively disagree with my take on this, I have to admit defeat. As I said before the debate is generally a good one and the points you all make are reasonable. For some perspective regarding the weekend past, we do have to remember that Celtic have a budget that is x100? (is that an exaggeration?) our own and they were galvanised after an OF humiliation. I think if AJ had any doubts about the mindset of our fanbase regarding the patience for a project, he knows now. The good vibes of the warm summer European evenings are long gone and any mistakes the manager or his players make from this point onwards will be treated with generic football fans impatientce. We are not quite in the must win category yet but it is very quickly trending that way. I think it will turn nasty fairly quickly if we lose this weekend. AJ has made it past the Russell Martin October 5 th watermark but that is with a very good first month honeymoon period behind him. I have the fear for him unfortunately. Already there is no room for error. There is a slightly depressing air of familiarity about it all.

Thats the best way to find out if all the coaching, words of wisdom, confidence boosting, tactics etc that AJ and his staff have no doubt given Vogts in recent weeks has been absorbed and learned by the player. Sadly for me after his lack of any meaningful contribution last Sunday the answer would seem to be no. Stamatelopoulos was not up to standard but early on he gave glimpses of him potentially being a decent player, we dont even get that with Vogt, hes like a rabbit in the headlights no idea where he should be aimlessly wandering about the pitch. For me i really dont think hes at the or ever going to make the standard we need at the club.

I dont condone fans booing individual players at any time. As you say, it is entirely counter productive. Im also sympathetic to the general theme of your posts. But I agree wholeheartedly with the subsequent posts of KMcAlpin and Wellfan. Giving Willy Vogt his first start in weeks against the best team in the league was frought with danger. I could understand giving him 30 minutes at the end if the game was going well. But Alfred effectively threw him in at the deep end and told him to go swim.

In terms of responsibilty to individuals, we have discussed Willy Vogt's situation and understandably so. That includes the effect on him personally of hooking him. However, what about the effect on Tom Sparrow, of not hooking Vogt? Sparrow was made to look silly, by having no effective cover in front of him. That said, he still isn't a full back. So, its not as simple as looking at Vogt in isolation.

There’s a world of difference between writing someone off as a lost cause and taking them off at half-time after a shocking performance. He’s clearly a project player and should be treated as such. Probably not, but that’s on the manager for starting him in the first place. Regardless, I’d argue that the overall wellbeing of the team on the pitch takes precedence over any one player’s feelings about being hooked after a shite performance. At the end of the day, we lost to Celtic for a variety of reasons, one of which was shockingly bad player management.

The manager’s decisions before, during and after the game very much have the feel of stubbornness to the point of personal failure. That, in turn, impacts on individual players and the team as a whole. There’s a difference between sticking to a philosophy and refusing to adapt when the evidence is staring you in the face. The latter is stupidity, likely borne out of inexperience.

Thanks for the tip(ple)!

I certainly don't condone any of our fans who barracked Vogt when he was substituted, if indeed that happened to any extent. Its certainly counter productive and not a good look. However, there is dubiety about this. We sit near the dugouts and the impression that I got was that many of those involved were directing their ire at AJ and not the player. I didn't hear any loud shouts aimed at the player, although there was much private discussion, if I may call it that. The manager has a fine balancing act in man management to weigh support for a player against responsibility to the team. Its not easy, but AJ got that very badly wrong. The lad is clearly nowhere near ready for first team football in our league let alone playing against the current champions. Why he chose him and what advice he was given by the coaches we don't know. AJ did him no favours by firstly picking him to start and secondly by not taking him off at half time. The lad's confidence will now be rock bottom. It raises serious questions about AJ's man management skills, as did other personnel decisions before and during the game.

Counting skills can be a big help also.

Think of the levels of self sabotage by the Motherwell support in that reaction. You don't need opposition fans if you are going to heap unnecessarily amounts of pressure on your own struggling player. We don't know the full reason for picking Vogt over other players but if confidence was an issue for the player before it certainly is now. I know the response to that is that AJ should never have played him in the first place but going by that logic he would never get an opportunity and a potential talent goes to waste.. Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence. The manager has to stick or twist. By gambling it allows the fans to stick the boot in. A crazy scenario when you think that the interests of everyone should be aligned. 'We like to see the development of young talent (but only when they come out the box as the finished article)' It's one of the reasons I think the word supporter should always be treated with significant poetic license. It is so easy to clap our hands and cheer when all is Rosey in the garden. To boo and ridicule one of your own players lacking in confidence isn't support. As a matter of fact it is the very opposite. Of course football fans are a sensitive bunch and do not like being criticised so we blame the player and we blame the manager and walk of into the sunset singing with a sense of smug satisfaction that we have paid our entrance fee and can do as we please with little care for the reputations we destroy. Stand up and sing, stand up and sing.........!!!