Kmcalpin

What about us Well fans who sit at the south end? Are we less important? We've had to suffer enough in the past.

Agreed. Not sure about being similar to Collum's angle but this is the best angle I've seen it from yet, especially in slow motion, and it does indeed look pretty clear cut. MacGregor cuts in front of Rose and then backs into him, as if he's shielding the ball and then falls forward. If anything it should be a foul to us.

The club's statement raises some interesting issues. I note that there's no mention, none whatsoever, about items being thrown onto our fans from above on Sunday. Do we take it from that, that it never happened / no-one reported it to the club / the club just didn't mention it. The club writing to the SFA about refereeing is very interesting indeed, as is Stewart Gilmour's comments on Twitter i.e. don't expect any official answers on referees or refereeing standards. Now lets go back to basics here. we are constantly told that the SFA is not an independent body on its own. It is "owned" by 42 individual members, the clubs. It serves only to represent them. Basically it does what they instruct it to do. Stewart Regan etc are merely de facto employees of the member clubs. Now from Gilmour's comments it seems like the refereeing section, run by a John Fleming, is very secretive even to the members/employers and will not divulge much information about its activities. Thats neither good enough nor acceptable in my opinion and Steart Regan and those below him should be taken to task and reminded of their position. It all seems like an episode of Yes Minister where the owners/employers i.e. the elected officials are subservient to the civil servants.

In that case its not a penalty. A referee has to be absolutely sure before awarding one. If a ref thinks it was even 80/20 then thats not sufficient. I usually go by our players' reactions, as thats a good yardstick and I've rarely seen them so incensed.

Apparently we are writing to the SFA to clarify refereeing decisions after quite few angry fans contacted the club. https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/motherwell/motherwell-to-seek-answers-over-ref-decisions-after-celtic-penalties-1-4627559

Can anyone enlighten me here? Last night Griffiths goes off the pitch to his team's technical area to change his boots, seemingly without the permission of Collum. He spends perhaps 2 minutes off the pitch watched by the 4th official and then enters play again without Collum's approval. Is this allowed these days? I still thought that the ref's permission was required to enter and leave the field of play.

This is getting worse and worse.

Agreed. Until recently I too thought that his best position was midfield but now I too think its in defence. So far Robbo hasn't been frightened to make big decisions.

Back to last night's game. Overall I think Robbo's tactics worked although by no means perfectly. They unfolded much as they should have done last Sunday, Craig Thomson permitting. In the first half the line up was wrong and while we played a reasonable containing game Moult was left too isolated by the formation as he always is when we play those tactics. When not in possession we were far too vulnerable down the flanks as Frear and Petravicius played in the middle. The midfield sat just too deep and invited Celtic onto us much to Carson's displeasure. We created virtually nothing. Cadden looked ineffective in the middle. To his credit though Robbo made changes ie when substituing the unlucky Petravicius. Interesting to see the ineffective McHugh substituted again??? It was great to see us go 4-3-3 late on. The players fought like tigers to a man although the central midfield struggled to win physical battles at times. I thought Carson was MOTM ably supported by Tait, Kipre, Hartley and Campbell. Tanner made a big difference when he came on. We did ride our luck at times but a shocking refereeing decision and not Celtic denied us. Celtic more than held their own physically and got right in our faces - not a part of their game that the media likes to highlight. I'd have taken a point beforehand but the eventual result felt like a defeat. Well done to the team and management. A final word on Alan Burrows - he's doing a great job. I don't agree with everything the club has done but thats life. I'm still seething about the decision not to appeal Kipre's red card and I suspect that there were differing opinions within the club about that just as there was not to contest the findings of the SPFL report about the Rangers play off final. Overall we have a great club and I wouldn't swap it for the world.

Some years ago Crags conceded a costly penalty at McDiarmid Park for facing the wrong way at a corner kick (no physical contact was made). Instead of facing the corner kick taker he turnmed round and faced his opponent. I've never heard an adequate explanation for that one.

I agree about corruption but bias can be conscious and deliberate. When confronted by a controversial incident, a referee could think ...if I don't award a penalty here l'm going to get my windows panned/threatened/kids bullied/the media will vilify me.

I've come to the conclusion that we have bias, corruption and incompetence affecting referees in Scotland (and elsewhere). I doubt if anyone could stand up and say hand on heart that there is absolutely no corruption in Scottish refereeing. Statistically any organisation including the Police, Health Service, education authority, local council, national government, private company or whatever is liable to have at least one bad apple in its midst. I doubt if Scottish refereeing is any different to other organisations in society. Bias is totally a different matter. Referees are supposed to be 100% unbiased but they fall well short of that standard. I think it was Liverpool University which conducted some research into this topic some years ago and it concluded that referees were influenced unduly by big teams and we all know who they are in the goldfish bowl of Scottish football. Some bias is conscious some unconscious. There is huge pressure from fans and media for referees to be favourable to the gruesome twosome and of course there is also the perfectly human fear of victimisation should a referee make an unpopular decision. Then we have incompetence. Refereeing is hard; its very difficult. They have to make split second decisions often whilst poorly sighted or being conned by players. I get that. However they are not openly accountable and the whole process is shrouded in secrecy. Fans are the lifeblood of the game, the paying public, and they deserve a reasonable explanation of decisions. The entire SFA refereeing function is simply not effective nor efficient and needs total scrutiny and improvement. Referees themselves are human and like ourselves make mistakes and I understand that. They need to be fitter, and better trained to ensure consistency. They also need to have the benefit of action replays to allow them to quickly review game changing decisions. They need to be accountable and explain themselves publicly. They also need more support and protection. Willie Collum last night made numerous mistakes from start to finish and eventually a game changing one. One "middle ranking" incident convinced me of the validity of the biased argument. Armstong committed a professional foul on one of our lads in midfield by taking him out and a foul was awarded (so, Collum saw it). Later in the game Alan Campbell committed an almost identical foul in the same area of the pitch but was given a yellow card. That was down to inconsistency and you can't come to any other reasonable conclusion except bias. Collum's late game changing penalty blunder speaks for itself - he was right on the spot.

Could we add "Bias" to the poll?

Could Carl McHugh be one to move on in January? Normally I'd say that the club captain would be untouchable but Robbo has never been afraid to shy away from difficult decisions. McHugh hasn't been performing this season and last night wasn't the first time he's been taken off. Thats not normal for a captain.

Agreed. Add to their names those of Plummer and Newell, and you have the basis for some readjustment of the squad.

I read this morning that Dedryk Boyata has described us as a physical team. What does that make Celtic then as they won the physical battle on Sunday?

I agree about the red card appeal, especially in view of Jim McMahon's comment about Kipper. That seems contradictory. Obviously something has gone on behind the scenes - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out. Its possible, but unlikely in the extreme, given what we've all seen or heard, that the club has decided Thomson was correct. Its also possible that Kipper himself has asked the club not to appeal. However the most likely explanation to me is that the SFA have told the club that if we appeal they would review Kipper's tackle on Dembele. All speculation on my part of course. As to your other point has anyone actually complained to the club or the SPFL about the seating? It would be hard for the club to take it up with SPFL if it hadn't received any complaint from fans.

100% agree. All speculation of course but it would also flush out the SFA's position and expose the truth, whatever that is.

Or that the SFA has suggested that they'll cite Kipre retrospectively for his earlier tackle on Dembele if we appeal.

I think the club is totally wrong about this and it sends out completely the wrong message. If something is going on behind the scenes then be open about it. As it is there will now be a nasty smell left to hang over this whole episode for evermore.

I agree and fortunately Bowman, Frear, Grimshaw, Rose, Tanner and Campbell all played considerably less than 90 minutes. We do have options.

IF this is true then the financial hit would be £2,000 I think. A drop in the ocean compared to what we've earned from our cup run. I agree though that if the club doesn't appeal there must be a reason - a question for a shareholder to raise at the next club AGM maybe?

I don't know about the rest of the team but yes Cadden must play wide right.

We should appeal it end of. If there are any other "strings attached" then make them public. The club has to support an innocent employee and if we don't it sends out the wrong message.

I suspect we will, if Jim McMahon has anything to do with it. No doubt we're waiting on the referee's report first, which might not arrive until tomorrow. As for tomorrow's game we have a number of options if Robbo wants to change things for various reasons. Stevie Hammell, Alan Campbell, Elliot Frear, Craig Tanner, Bigi, Ellis Plummer, Ross MacLean, Deimantas Petr....,and Alex Fisher could all step in.