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Andy_P

Former Motherwell Fc Players Thread

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I’m sure Shrewsbury were raging when we got Humphrey for nothing as well.

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45 minutes ago, Bert the Sailor said:

Aye cos bringing in players to our club to actually play in our first team is exactly the same as laundering a player through a third party team to avoid paying a fee. 

What about teams (like Celtic) that bring in players (like Lewis Morgan) and then loan them out (first back to the selling club and then to Sunderland)? Or Liverpool, that loan out a player to Rangers to let them avoid paying a fee? Clubs do this all the time - the only difference here is the US connection where they are trying to make out they are Category 3 or 4 clubs.

I'd also still like to hear how Columbus benefit from this. It seems a lot of hassle if all Oxford do is split the difference in the 2 potential fees, and they'd be crazy to do it for nothing. Plus it still feels like one of those situations where the tax man taxes Oxford on the value of the benefit they receive rather than on the cost of the deal. 

Anyway,  I'll let the smart lawyers figure this one out. We might end up with a "Cadden" the same way we ended up with a "Bosman".

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Was there not something about us getting Trevor Carson from Hartlepool for less than we should’ve due to them being in admin or something?

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5 hours ago, Bert the Sailor said:

Aye cos bringing in players to our club to actually play in our first team is exactly the same as laundering a player through a third party team to avoid paying a fee. 

This!

Rightly self interrogation of our own past dealings means we have exploited the system, for me that was clever and something we have to do. We play in a league exploited by two Glasgow clubs and in a country exploited in a paltry TV deal and we have to make hay while the sun is shining, whenever or where ever we are able. It's nice to be nice but being ruthless is also a required at times. I'm sure Robinson will mention turning the screw or being ruthless in at least 10 pressers this season. If its good enough and what we expect on the park then it should be what we expect of the running of the club too.

The key difference in the past it was a player, Club A and Club B (us). It was up to Club A to know the rules and not let them be used against them. We wised up and offered players like Hastie and Erwin contracts within a few months of the end date to ensure compensation. Not to do so meant we forfeit or get diminished returns. I imagine very few clubs make this omission now.

What we have here is MFC, a player, Oxford and Columbus. With Columbus doing the bidding of Oxford without any discernible reward other than the gratitude of Oxford. The gain is Oxford bypass fees that mean they would potentially have to limit his wages or may not be able to afford his services. What makes it stick in the craw is he has been muted to be a target of Oxford for a good few weeks with rumours of him training with them (can anyone confirm this).

All hypothetical but as for the incentive, maybe it was muted Cadden could expect a higher weekly wage due to doing this. £1,000 a week extra is £50k a year and on a 4 year deal is a £200k saving on what we may expect in compensation.

The thought of Cadden's representative high 5'ing and feeling like he's some master tactician with whoever from either club after some dirty dealing, talking via Skype scheming how to fuck Motherwell gives me the rage.

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6 hours ago, Andy_P said:

Let's not forget though, we may have invested 10 years plus into the development of his game but we got four or so years of a first team player, and what 150 games or abouts, on the back of that investment.  Sometimes compensation isn't always monetary.

Sorry Andy, not with you on this one. Would you be saying the same if in theory Turnbull went to Celtic via LA Galaxy in 2 years time? Cutting us out of £6m? We'd have had just over 2 years of his first team involvement by then. 

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5 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

What makes it stick in the craw is he has been muted to be a target of Oxford for a good few weeks with rumours of him training with them (can anyone confirm this).

All hypothetical but as for the incentive, maybe it was muted Cadden could expect a higher weekly wage due to doing this.

If you’re going to keep using that word can you at least look up how to spell it?!

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10 hours ago, ropy said:

What are you suggesting he should have done

I can't pretend to know the detail of the various options and contractual negotiations, and neither do you. So it's an unanswerable question.

But in broad terms, he could have instructed his agent that his move should not be structured in a way which avoids his boyhood club receiving a minimum development fee. 

If a player want to force a move which doesn't work well for the selling club, they can generally do that around the end of their contract. Some young players choose not to go down road out of respect or a sense of loyalty to the development club. There's an obvious example all over the papers - if Teirney was minded to force a move, Celic would most likely have accepted an earlier offer and he'd be an Arsenal player right now. 

Like it or not, Cadden has opted for a deal he would have known left Well screwed, to the degree we are now considering legal action. There is no point in pretending he was powerless, it's simply not true.

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3 hours ago, Inthebasement said:

Like it or not, Cadden has opted for a deal he would have known left Well screwed, to the degree we are now considering legal action. There is no point in pretending he was powerless, it's simply not true.

Absolutely agree 

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22 hours ago, sbcmfc said:

I’d heard months ago that Cadden was  keen on a move to America.

The fact that Cadden is being quoted as being "keen" on a move to America, as a 22 year old footballer who's not even in his prime years - (if indeed it is true!) - is surely indicative of his ambition or belief in his own potential. Twenty-two year old rock stars should be looking to break America...twenty-two year old footballers, in my opinion, should certainly not be aiming for a move to the MLS at this stage in their careers.

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16 minutes ago, KirkySuperSub said:

The fact that Cadden is being quoted as being "keen" on a move to America, as a 22 year old footballer who's not even in his prime years - (if indeed it is true!) - is surely indicative of his ambition or belief in his own potential. Twenty-two year old rock stars should be looking to break America...twenty-two year old footballers, in my opinion, should certainly not be aiming for a move to the MLS at this stage in their careers.

While I'm no big fan of the MLS it's certainly no worse than going to play for a mid-table League One side these days. And it's certainly easier to make a move like that when you're young and have no ties than when you're older and married with kids (much more complicated than a move to pre-Brexit EU countries).

If he was planning on seeing out his entire career there, it would be a different story.

Not sure I'd really want to go and live in Ohio, right enough. Columbus is an OK city, but there's not much else round those parts.

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10 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Sorry Andy, not with you on this one. Would you be saying the same if in theory Turnbull went to Celtic via LA Galaxy in 2 years time? Cutting us out of £6m? We'd have had just over 2 years of his first team involvement by then. 

Fair enough, I'm not denying that what the clubs concerned have done is morally questionable (if not indeed perhaps legally questionable), but if his contract has expired then as with Cadden, Turnbull is entitled do as he sees fit.  As much as it isn't Cadden's responsibility that the compensation rules aren't as watertight as they should be, neither would it be Turnbull's however much we might miss out on.

My view is that once a contract has expired we no longer have a say or influence on what the player does.  Our battle should be with the authorities to ensure rules are as they should be not with players who have been model professionals whilst under contract with us.

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35 minutes ago, KirkySuperSub said:

The fact that Cadden is being quoted as being "keen" on a move to America, as a 22 year old footballer who's not even in his prime years - (if indeed it is true!) - is surely indicative of his ambition or belief in his own potential. Twenty-two year old rock stars should be looking to break America...twenty-two year old footballers, in my opinion, should certainly not be aiming for a move to the MLS at this stage in their careers. 

He will never play MLS. He will be loaned to Oxford then sign for Oxford.

 

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I don't ever understand the view some people have of the MLS, especially now. The league is definitely on the up, They pay fairly well, The quality of life is streets ahead of anything on offer in england, and as someone said above is it really much of a step down on what he'd get in england? the chance to play in some massive stadiums in front of very good crowds and from a personal point of view, he has no commitments and it is a chance to see america and experience the lifestlye. New York, Chicago, Orlando or Doncaster, Rotherham and Shrewsbury.

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7 minutes ago, Neilwell86 said:

I don't ever understand the view some people have of the MLS, especially now. The league is definitely on the up, They pay fairly well, The quality of life is streets ahead of anything on offer in england, and as someone said above is it really much of a step down on what he'd get in england? the chance to play in some massive stadiums in front of very good crowds and from a personal point of view, he has no commitments and it is a chance to see america and experience the lifestlye. New York, Chicago, Orlando or Doncaster, Rotherham and Shrewsbury.

By the looks of it he's not even been to America.

 

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30 minutes ago, steelboy said:

By the looks of it he's not even been to America.

 

If he isn't  going to play there yet, it would be more trouble (and expense) than it's worth to arrange the correct business visa to fly over, sign a contract and fly back.

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I think it's a pretty good move for Cadden tbh. Do folk honestly think he's better than League 1/MLS standard? If it was Turnbull or someone chucking away a career at a good level to go to America it'd be different, but somebody as technically limited as Cadden is probably unlikely to amount to more than a journeymen career in England or Scotland. He might as well choose money and quality of life in America than a similar career in a slightly better league. 

Just a shame the club are potentially getting screwed by it all.

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I don't think anybody's really saying it's a bad move for him, just an unfortunate one for the club. As for whether he should've tried to make sure we didn't get screwed... easy for us to sit here and say that, but we don't know what other offers were or weren't coming in, and for all we know someone or something might have pissed him off just enough over the summer that he's not that bothered anyway. Even if he is, sentiment for your employer is usually best left out of it when you're thinking about moving on... they'll forget you a lot quicker than you'll forget them.

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11 hours ago, numpty said:

If you’re going to keep using that word can you at least look up how to spell it?!

Spelling and grammar mistakes on an online forum, the natural habitat refuge of the arseholes among us

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On 7/24/2019 at 3:57 PM, ropy said:

What should Cadden have done?

I think he was supposed to sign for one of the long list of clubs looking to sign him and pay us the development fee. Oh wait... 

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12 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Spelling and grammar mistakes on an online forum, the natural habitat refuge of the arseholes among us

Should that not read "habitat and refuge" ?

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On 7/24/2019 at 6:32 PM, Inthebasement said:

Personally don't blame the clubs involved in the Cadden swindle at all - it's legal and I don't doubt we'd have done something similar if the opportunity arose. I do however blame Cadden, at least to an extent. The player does has power in these circumstances, and can help ensure compensation for the club if so inclined, though it will sometimes be contrary to their own immediate interests. In short hand, he's taken the Hastie route rather than the Turnbull, and given the boys background and relationship with the club that's a little disappointing.

The obvious difference there is that Turnbull is well aware that he's destined for bigger things and will be seeing a significant increase in wages over the next five years or so, while Cadden is moving to Oxford. 

Just like any other fan, if a player who's leaving is able to do the club a solid I'm grateful. But when it starts to veer towards fans blaming the actual player when he doesn't take a hit in his own personal circumstances to help the club I start to wonder a bit.

The harsh truth is that the player has zero obligation to the club. All this chat of "we gave him his chance, we provided him with his start in football" is great, but let's not forget that if the player hadn't been talented enough to benefit the club he'd have been papped out on his arse like so many before him.

The club looks after itself in that regard, and the player should be doing the same. 

As far as Cadden goes, we could have chosen to sell him on while he was under contract, couldn't we? There was interest a while back from Hearts and maybe Aberdeen I think, but the club decided to roll the dice and go down the compensation route. That was our call.

The player is doing what's right for him and his family, as he absolutely should. He owes us nothing.

 

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14 hours ago, faddythedaddy said:

Back to the SPL within 3 years NAP

Agreed.

17 hours ago, Neilwell86 said:

I don't ever understand the view some people have of the MLS, especially now. The league is definitely on the up, They pay fairly well, The quality of life is streets ahead of anything on offer in england, and as someone said above is it really much of a step down on what he'd get in england? the chance to play in some massive stadiums in front of very good crowds and from a personal point of view, he has no commitments and it is a chance to see america and experience the lifestlye. New York, Chicago, Orlando or Doncaster, Rotherham and Shrewsbury.

I see this comment every time someone talks about the MLS, and I'm never sure what it's based on. Yeah, Ibrahimovic is there, fair enough, but the quality remains the same, attendances don't really seem to be changing dramatically, they're adding teams to it to expand it, but I dunno what 'on the up' really means beyond folk continuing to say it.

The rest of the point, yeah absolutely. Bellshill or Boston? You wouldn't see me for dust.

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