Kmcalpin

Wots a shine box?

I'd rate Joe Wark as our best left back since I began going to Fir Park. Joes' only weakness that I could see was his lack of pace. Why didn't he move clubs? I don't know the answer to that except perhaps that he played in a different era with more club loyalty and no Bosman moves. He never got capped purely because of Old Firm bias, which is why I stopped going to Scotland games. Don't forget too we had Baldy Shaw in the 40s and 50s. Now with Stevie Hammell we've had more than our fair share of loyal left backs.

Neither Tanner nor Petra are out and out strikers.

I'm sure he took one in a penalty shoot out at Forfar ........and missed.

I'm of the same view. I really did think we'd have a number of targets lined up. Neither Main nor Cifti seem to fit our model ie guys with potential who have scored goals, albeit at a lower level but who haven't realised their potential. In the club's defence though its a difficult window in which to get decent players brought in. As others have said of course other clubs may have upped their demands when they found out just how much we received for Louis Moult. It may be of course that we have a target lined up for the summer and just want a short term fix to tide us over.

Cifti represents a big risk and doesn't seem to fit well with Robinson's public stereotype player. On one hand he's a big physical guy who can put himself about and stand up to all but the the biggest of defenders. He's also got loads of skill and an eye for goal. On the other hand he did have an attitude and behavioural problem and was only ever really a success at Dundee United. You pays your money and you takes your choice. He'd be a gamble which might pay off or backfire.

Don't hold back then Andy!

Once he left us I ceased to have much interest in him apart from any add on money which we earned. I wish him no harm at all of course but I'd rather concentrate on our current players. What he posts is up to him and so long as he doesn't denigrate us I'll take no notice. He does seem a decent sort though.

I'm not normally one to rush things in the transfer window usually preferring to prioritise quality over speed of signing but we need to get new signings in and up and running before the Accies and Ross County games. Still time yet but the clock is ticking.

We need to bring in a few players and despite whats been said I suspect we'll be trying to offload a player or two. The back up goalkeeper position needs sorting out one way or the other as I can't see Trevor Carson playing every game from now until the end of the season. Although management know best, I suspect we'll need a back up left back as Ellis Plummer is clearly out of the reckoning and it would be unfair to heap too much pressure on the very promising but youthful Adam Livingston. We all know we're we're looking for a new central defender. An attacking central midfielder with apce would be nice but I can't see it being a priority this month. Another striker is a must. So I'd say we're looking at maybe 3 more players, more if a better player moves on for cash.

Good post. The football world has changed and we are but a small part of that. I admire Bosman for his honesty. He always said he never intended to change the system for the good of his fellow professionals but was simply doing it for personal selflish motives and I'm comfortable with that. We're in the early days of our new business model and I feel its on the right track. As thisGraeme says I want us to move onto the next level once Les and John Boyle have been paid off.

One of the most emotive posts I've read on here in years so well done. Its certainly sparked debate which is great. However I don't think all of it is strictly factual. Some good rebuttals too from the likes Of Spiderpig, Andy P and Welldaft. You've missed out Stevie Hammell's presence on Saturday so we ought to take that into account. Taking into this year's position so far, we've finished above them in 3 years out of 4. We haven't completely ignored youth development when you take into account lads like Cadden, Campbell, Erwin and Hall, so thats being slightly unkind. After the Baraclough era, Robbo was charged with keeping us up and developing youth. I'd argue he's still battling to keep us up and is only 6 months into the rebuilding programme. I would argue that our club has gained from its current recruitment policy. All managers have thier fair share of failures. Tommy Maclean is often credited as being one of most astute managers ever in the transfer market but even he signed his fair amount of failures. Yes he signed household names such as Ray Blair, Bobby Carberry, Brian Wright, Jamie Doyle, John Gardiner, Gordon Mair.. I won't go on. Under the current policy we've made maybe twice or three times the £500K you quote. I simply don't agree that currently we have the worst quality of footballer we've ever had. I don't know how old you are but we've had far worse teams in the past. What about the Alex McLeish team of the late 90s? If thats not enough what about harri kampmann's side of the late 90s? Then there's Ally MacLeod's team of the late 70s. Bobby Howitt's team of the late 60s which got relegated from a league of 18 teams was as poor as I can recall. You use the term "human commodity dealing" which conjures up visions in my mind of modern day slavery and human trafficking. This could apply to the whole footballing world. Its a short career but most senior footballers do very well out of it thanks very much. It could equally apply to Accies' much and rightly lauded youth scheme which you cite. I can assure you that that scheme, in common with most others is very cutthroat and ruthless. Hamilton may field a commendable amount of young players but they certainly don't play good football. In fact its much worse than ours. The young players they bring through are very streetwise indeed. Given our resources, we are never going to do well in the top league by playing good football alone. To do well i.e. win a top six place or reach a cup final we have to play a more mundane brand of boring football as do most of our direct competitors such as St Johnstone, who have done so very successfully. Don't forget too that a good few of wee Tommy's early teams were as boring as hell to watch; in those days were we quite content to defend in depth, attack twice and win by 1-0. We should be grateful for what we've got, although thats not to say things can't be improved upon.

We weren't well beaten by Accies. Yes, they deserved to win but it was close and refereeing decisions played a big part.

Kipre is a young guy, only about 20 I believe and it was never intended to play him week in week out. He was signed as a long term prospect and as back up. The rest is history. Time will tell.

I think you've been paying too much heed to the Scottish media. Our physical/aggeressive approach to football was never an issue until we beat Sevco in the semi final. Sevco could handle themselves perfectly well just ask Louis Moult. In the run of games since then most teams have beaten us physically and in some cases dominated us. In the game against Hibs media darling John McGinn who is built like a tank lashed out at anything that moved and proved more than capable of winning 40/60 balls. Don't confuse one random barny with an over physical approach. Dundee were very physical for example with Moussa in particular being lucky to see half time. Their defence too were big and took no prisoners. Last weekend Accies were far more physical and aggressive than us. Tanner and Newell in particular suffered a battering. Where we do lose out to some extent is that we are naive and commit rash challenges Kipre style whilst other more streetwise teams lash out behind the referee's back. On the contrary I want to see us improve our physicality and controlled aggression yet further but without resorting to dirtiness. I want to see our players be strong enough to hold off challenges from the likes of Brown, McGinn, Tomas, McKinnon, Alves, Lafferty and O'Hara.

Probably Thursday or Friday when the SFA publishes its updated list of suspensions.

Agree Jim. Assuming that none of our injured players are fit and we don't make any new signings or they aren't eligible, all of which I think is highly unlikely it has to be said, then yes they'd probably beat us again.

On this occasion I think you're missing the point. No-one is defending Hartley, at least I don't think they are. What he did was wrong just downright wrong and he deserves to be punished for it, which is he being. He's let down his team mates, the fans, his team captain, managers and the club. Some, though not me, would also argue he's let down Dougie Imrie and Hamilton Accies. As I say he's being punished for his indiscretions and I think he will accept that. However he's human; football is a an emotional game and once he's served his punishment we move on. All that said, he, we the paying fans, and our club should expect no less than fair and consistent treatment of the other culprits. He shouldn't expect the incident to be treated in an ad hoc and random way and through spur of the moment justice. As far as I can tell there were 3 other "fouls" committed by Accies players namely shoving, kicking and punching Hartley. In my book they should also be investigated thoroughly and treated in a fair and consistent way, and if found guilty given appropriate punishments. You refer to ensuing "handbags". How would you describe Hartley's shove? McMann shoved Hartley; and he was punched and kicked by 2 others. I'd hardly describe punching and kicking as handbags. If that had happened on Fir Park Street then the 2 culprits would have been lifted and charged with breach of the peace. The issue here is not whether Hartley should be defended but that the entire incident should be investigated in a fair and consistent manner.

Yes he is. From start to finish he failed to manage the game and a streetwise and cynical Accies team knew it and took full advantage. I've no doubt that the scuffle at the conclusion of the game arose, in part at least, because of unresolved niggles that built up since kick off. I don't know how referees are appointed but surely the SFA powers that be would have flagged up the fixture as a high risk one in that they know how Accies play; they had recent previous; and it was a local derby. Given that they ought to have appointed a more senior referee although that in itself would not have guaranteed a decent official. His first mistake on Saturday was not yellow carding (maybe even a red card?) Donati or Tomas for cynically taking Campbell out as he headed towards the penalty box. By not doing so he sent out entirely the wrong message, and things just deteriorated after that.

I agree about the BBC, for what its worth. I'm puzzled as to why Hartley was red carded off the pitch, but no-one else was. Yes it was the initial incident and Imrie fell to the deck, so it was easy to spot. I get that. But, the officials were a distance away. As the melee unfolded, the match officials ran towards it and were closer. I would guess that they'd see several things going on but maybe not clearly; however there were three of them. Surely the common sense thing to do was to warn Hartley that he'd be in trouble and then break up the disturbance? In his report the referee could then refer to the melee and Hartley's instigation of it. He would then have time to check footages etc and then compile his report. In that way all of the individual incidents would be treated exactly the same. In this case the very system will be under scrutiny but of course neither Celtic nor Sevco are involved so it won't be back page news.

If they don't use it I'll be absolutely raging and I'll be far from the only one. When the Compliance Officer procedure was first introduced the first postholder stated that he would take into account all available evidence. I took him at his word and submitted some after a game against St Johnstone. My submission was ignored without acknowledgement. The last postholder, Vincent Lunny stated that his staff skimmed through TV highlights on a Monday morning and picked up on anything untoward, especially anything that was highlighted (by whom you may ask). Agree with him or not, this season the new postholder seems to have taken a fairly random and inconsistent approach to incidents missed by the referee. However both Accies and Ross County have been cited for their part in the recent melee in their game. I assume that both the BBC coverage and the club's own coverage will be used as a minimum. In the BBC footage, 2 match officials can be seen rushing towards the scuffle, during which several incidents take place. In addition to what we've already discussed the Accies No 3, McMann, forcibly and clearly pushes Hartley in the chest, although he doesn't land on the deck. I assume that as Hartley has already been red carded he will not receive any further punishment, but that then begs the question why the referee missed 3 assaults on Hartley, and maybe more indiscretions. The referee will report that the scuffle/brawl took place and surely must be aware that other things were going on. That in itself should trigger an investigation. It goes against natural justice to pick on one culprit but then ignore another three, two of which were for worse actions. In something as serious as this, the Compliance Office or relevant SFA officials are surely duty bound to examine all available evidence, including verbal accounts and explanations and all video footage. Their final decision has to be based on reaching the absolute truth and not just whats convenient. If they don't then this calls into serious question the fairness of the whole system. Had I been the referee I'd have temporarily ignored Hartley's foul unless I was sure I and my officials, had seen all that had gone on. The system has to be fair and be seen to be fair. If footage from an Accies fan proves guilt of Accies' players' involvement then so be it as it will help to get at the truth of what took place. It would be ironic though wouldn'd it?

If that happens it'll be a very serious miscarriage of justice. Having examined the various video footages and comments by posters I do think there's enough evidence from the BBC to cite 2 Accies players for 1) punching Hartley and 2) kicking him in the back of his leg. Surely the brawl will be investigated? I'd go so far as to say that although Hartley started things his was the least serious offence and was only one of several "incidents". Accies of course have very recent previous for this kind of thing and they could be hauled up before the beaks twice.

This is the very kind of pitfall we need to avoid. I would think that most decent prospects in the Scottish lower leagues would be very young guys say aged 16-18 who would be bought as long term prospects and not immediate first team squad players. Any slightly more mature really decent players are snapped up by English clubs for fees. Thats not to say that you can't pick up the odd gem but its not a market I'd rush into. Faisal El Bakhtoui of Dundee is a case in point. He was scoring goals for fun at Dunfermline but has struggled to make the step up. I don't care where a player comes from so long as he does the business for us. We need to avoid the Keatings of the world.

I would think so but don't forget a few Accies players could receive bans their part in the melee following the Ross County game. The player who kicked Hartley will also be cited and banned I would think. At the game I though the referee was very poor and got several major decisions wrong. However after watching the TV highlights I'd say he got something like 5 or 6 major decisions wrong. Shocking officiating.

Robbo mentioned burn out and said that lessons would have to be learnt from it. Celtic, with a larger squad have also suffered because of it. Yes, he does deserve a chance and my gut feeling is that he will turn it around. However if he doesn't what do we do?