Kmcalpin

Probably Thursday or Friday when the SFA publishes its updated list of suspensions.

Agree Jim. Assuming that none of our injured players are fit and we don't make any new signings or they aren't eligible, all of which I think is highly unlikely it has to be said, then yes they'd probably beat us again.

On this occasion I think you're missing the point. No-one is defending Hartley, at least I don't think they are. What he did was wrong just downright wrong and he deserves to be punished for it, which is he being. He's let down his team mates, the fans, his team captain, managers and the club. Some, though not me, would also argue he's let down Dougie Imrie and Hamilton Accies. As I say he's being punished for his indiscretions and I think he will accept that. However he's human; football is a an emotional game and once he's served his punishment we move on. All that said, he, we the paying fans, and our club should expect no less than fair and consistent treatment of the other culprits. He shouldn't expect the incident to be treated in an ad hoc and random way and through spur of the moment justice. As far as I can tell there were 3 other "fouls" committed by Accies players namely shoving, kicking and punching Hartley. In my book they should also be investigated thoroughly and treated in a fair and consistent way, and if found guilty given appropriate punishments. You refer to ensuing "handbags". How would you describe Hartley's shove? McMann shoved Hartley; and he was punched and kicked by 2 others. I'd hardly describe punching and kicking as handbags. If that had happened on Fir Park Street then the 2 culprits would have been lifted and charged with breach of the peace. The issue here is not whether Hartley should be defended but that the entire incident should be investigated in a fair and consistent manner.

Yes he is. From start to finish he failed to manage the game and a streetwise and cynical Accies team knew it and took full advantage. I've no doubt that the scuffle at the conclusion of the game arose, in part at least, because of unresolved niggles that built up since kick off. I don't know how referees are appointed but surely the SFA powers that be would have flagged up the fixture as a high risk one in that they know how Accies play; they had recent previous; and it was a local derby. Given that they ought to have appointed a more senior referee although that in itself would not have guaranteed a decent official. His first mistake on Saturday was not yellow carding (maybe even a red card?) Donati or Tomas for cynically taking Campbell out as he headed towards the penalty box. By not doing so he sent out entirely the wrong message, and things just deteriorated after that.

I agree about the BBC, for what its worth. I'm puzzled as to why Hartley was red carded off the pitch, but no-one else was. Yes it was the initial incident and Imrie fell to the deck, so it was easy to spot. I get that. But, the officials were a distance away. As the melee unfolded, the match officials ran towards it and were closer. I would guess that they'd see several things going on but maybe not clearly; however there were three of them. Surely the common sense thing to do was to warn Hartley that he'd be in trouble and then break up the disturbance? In his report the referee could then refer to the melee and Hartley's instigation of it. He would then have time to check footages etc and then compile his report. In that way all of the individual incidents would be treated exactly the same. In this case the very system will be under scrutiny but of course neither Celtic nor Sevco are involved so it won't be back page news.

If they don't use it I'll be absolutely raging and I'll be far from the only one. When the Compliance Officer procedure was first introduced the first postholder stated that he would take into account all available evidence. I took him at his word and submitted some after a game against St Johnstone. My submission was ignored without acknowledgement. The last postholder, Vincent Lunny stated that his staff skimmed through TV highlights on a Monday morning and picked up on anything untoward, especially anything that was highlighted (by whom you may ask). Agree with him or not, this season the new postholder seems to have taken a fairly random and inconsistent approach to incidents missed by the referee. However both Accies and Ross County have been cited for their part in the recent melee in their game. I assume that both the BBC coverage and the club's own coverage will be used as a minimum. In the BBC footage, 2 match officials can be seen rushing towards the scuffle, during which several incidents take place. In addition to what we've already discussed the Accies No 3, McMann, forcibly and clearly pushes Hartley in the chest, although he doesn't land on the deck. I assume that as Hartley has already been red carded he will not receive any further punishment, but that then begs the question why the referee missed 3 assaults on Hartley, and maybe more indiscretions. The referee will report that the scuffle/brawl took place and surely must be aware that other things were going on. That in itself should trigger an investigation. It goes against natural justice to pick on one culprit but then ignore another three, two of which were for worse actions. In something as serious as this, the Compliance Office or relevant SFA officials are surely duty bound to examine all available evidence, including verbal accounts and explanations and all video footage. Their final decision has to be based on reaching the absolute truth and not just whats convenient. If they don't then this calls into serious question the fairness of the whole system. Had I been the referee I'd have temporarily ignored Hartley's foul unless I was sure I and my officials, had seen all that had gone on. The system has to be fair and be seen to be fair. If footage from an Accies fan proves guilt of Accies' players' involvement then so be it as it will help to get at the truth of what took place. It would be ironic though wouldn'd it?

If that happens it'll be a very serious miscarriage of justice. Having examined the various video footages and comments by posters I do think there's enough evidence from the BBC to cite 2 Accies players for 1) punching Hartley and 2) kicking him in the back of his leg. Surely the brawl will be investigated? I'd go so far as to say that although Hartley started things his was the least serious offence and was only one of several "incidents". Accies of course have very recent previous for this kind of thing and they could be hauled up before the beaks twice.

This is the very kind of pitfall we need to avoid. I would think that most decent prospects in the Scottish lower leagues would be very young guys say aged 16-18 who would be bought as long term prospects and not immediate first team squad players. Any slightly more mature really decent players are snapped up by English clubs for fees. Thats not to say that you can't pick up the odd gem but its not a market I'd rush into. Faisal El Bakhtoui of Dundee is a case in point. He was scoring goals for fun at Dunfermline but has struggled to make the step up. I don't care where a player comes from so long as he does the business for us. We need to avoid the Keatings of the world.

I would think so but don't forget a few Accies players could receive bans their part in the melee following the Ross County game. The player who kicked Hartley will also be cited and banned I would think. At the game I though the referee was very poor and got several major decisions wrong. However after watching the TV highlights I'd say he got something like 5 or 6 major decisions wrong. Shocking officiating.

Robbo mentioned burn out and said that lessons would have to be learnt from it. Celtic, with a larger squad have also suffered because of it. Yes, he does deserve a chance and my gut feeling is that he will turn it around. However if he doesn't what do we do?

Accies have the lowest.

I didn't expect us to win yesterday and we didn't. If we had played well enough and were lucky enough I thought we would be good enough to earn a draw but that wasn't the case. Had Hamilton had another player booked and maybe one red carded (maybe a yellow) in the first half and not won a penalty and we had been given 2 penalties or even one penalty then the result may have been different. However luck doesn't favour struggling sides. That would be glossing over the fact though that Accies were the better side overr 94 minutes and deserved the 3 points just; we were poor. We started off brightly and could have been 2 up in the first 20 minutes, but weren't. After that Accies took control and dictated the course of the game. Yes, they were cynical and streetwise and controlled the rookie ref but you can't argue it wasn't effective. The loss of Campbell after a shocking foul was a body blow just before half time as was the soft penalty. By then we looked pretty clueless. Accies then scored a second after Harltey and Kipre got mixed up and scored a third after very weak defending. By then they were then content to defend in depth and time waste safe in the knowledge that we wouldn't score. Although we had a lot pf pressure we couldn't get much on target and lacked creativity and pace. All too often we resorted to lumping in high balls from far out and that simply smacked of desperation. We showed no signs of playing to any type of plan. As the second half wore on our heads went down and we tired - not surprising given the way the midweek fixtures panned out. I didn't get the Fisher for Rose substitution - why play the former on the left wing? I didn't see the melee when Hartley shoved Imrie but would have liked to know what Imrie said to Carson as Iassume it wasn't "Have a good New Year". Ali Crawford is guaranteed a warm welcome or should it be a hot reception on 20 January from POD stand punters after needless and provocative gesturing when he was substituted. Tanner was our best player although MOTM..I don't know. Newell showed promise but is very young and needs to bulk up. Campbell looke dpromising before being injured. I don't get some of the comments singling out Hammell for praise. Overall he lost his man on just too many occasions; he was badly short with a potentially costly pass back in the first half; and looked very weak at the 3rd goal. That said, he was no worse than perhaps 8 or 9 of the other players. All in all the result was not unexpected for me. We are still just 2 points off top six and 4 off the play off place. Next month will be big for us. Stepehn Robinson has to get it right. He has to bring in fresh blood to hit the ground running, especially up front and get good wins at the end of the month. I still think he can do it and continue with team rebuilding but am not as confident as I was before yesterday.

Does anyone know why Hartley was red carded yesterday? The reason I ask is that as far as we know the Hamilton "hard man" who sneaked up and whacked Hartley from behind after he shoved Imrie wasn't afforded the same punishment. Was it for something that occurred in the tunnel? No doubt the SFA will investigate and a few players could be hauled up.

A decision for the directors. IF we call time on Robbo, and thats by no means certain, then how much culpability, if any at all, can be attributed to Las?

He still has some credit in the bank for getting us to a cup final and doing well early on. The current run is disastrous but has been influenced by a very tough run of fixtures and injuries to key players. Hopefully the break will allow us to recharge batteries and get some fresh faces in. Its crucial that he does the business early on. The question for the Board is, if he doesn't improve when do we get rid? For me we would have to allow time to find a new manager/management team and give them time to turn things around. Like Milo I'd say we see first who is brought in next month and then decide after the Ross County game (15 games to go). Leave it much longer than that and there's no point in changing. If we can't beat Accies and Ross County then it doesn't matter what I think the fans will call time on him.

Agree with that assessment Clackscat. Assuming no-one is sold and no-one is shipped out I'd say we need 2 strikers, a creative midfielder and a central defender. That sounds like a lot. However I suspect a few might be moved on to clear the decks a bit. I think Bowman has to go, for his own good. Joewarkthelegend said to me yesterday that all the negative media publicity he's copped since the league cup semi final has really got to him and he's now not half the player he was a couple of months ago. We all know that the strikers are misfiring but yes, they've had to work with very little ammunition. For all that though its the midfield, and particularly the centre that is underperforming. There is zero creativity, zero pace and it just isn'tm protecting the centre backs. On paper it looks decent enough, but the likes of Rose, McHugh and Grimshaw just aren't doing it. Bigi, at best has been ok. Recently we just haven't been competing in central midfield and before you can work with the ball you have to win it. Big changes are required this month and we'll see if the management teram are up for it. We also need to bring in bodies quickly as we have a busy schedule at the end of the month. i.e. 3 league game after the cup game.

No such chant from me as we are indeed playing poorly just now, but do you need to post in a public forum that you're not sure whether to go or not? Folk go to games for a variety of reasons. I appreciate its a democratic forum though and the rules state you can pretty much write what you like, as long its MFC related. I appreciate that money might be tight but you shouldn't feel that you have justify to us that you may not go or the reasons why.

McHugh is indeed suspended for one game and Tait will miss the cup game.

Thats my understanding. PNE would not be happy if he featured tomorrow.

We do however need to sign at least one striker who is match fit. In the past we've signed players who've taken 6-8 weeks to get fit.

I wouldn't have thought that the conditions of the surrounding pavements etc was an issue for the Police given the conditions at Firhill a week or two back when folk were falling all over the place. A few of us can also remember wading through a foot of ice and freezing water to get into Inverness' s stadium for a midweek cup game during Craig Brown's reign. Anyhow a thaw is forecast to set in. Onto footballing matters and presumably McHugh will be a certain non starter if he sustained a head knock on Wednesday? Far from ideal but lets see Newell start and inject some pace into our attack, if only for 50 minutes or so. Accies will be short of defenders but that won't matter if we can't pressurise them. No doubt they'll play as streetwise as they usually do - time waste, break up play, niggle and foul. The ref will need to be strong from the off, but don't hold your breath. they'll also be a bit fresher given their midweek cancellation. It won't be a classic and no doubt it'll end up a midfield street scrap or brawl. Being realistic, a 0-0 draw will do me fine, although a win would be even better.

When did we last have one, if ever, who could do that? Lukas Jutkiewicz? Its a very, very tall order.

A well reasoned post, which I lalregy agree with. This was my big fear pre match that our midfield would be unable to compete and protect our defence and so it proved.

We'll agree to differ on that.

Not really. McHugh is a deep lying, slow, holding midfielder cum centre back; Campbell is a terrier like aggressive midfielder; Rose is a box to box cleaner upper if you like; and Grimshaw is an aggressive all action sort who can play wide.