Welldaft Mk1 Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I get that Les is a serious business man. I get that he wants the club to be self sufficient. I appreciate he provided much needed income at a time of hardship. But I am struggling with the fact that as a reputed Billionaire - he is wanting his loans paid in full OR ELSE. The sad fact is - that as covered before in my post and many others. Those that are interested in signing up to the Well Society and then providing a monthly direct debit are generally also buying a season ticket or 2/3/4 and buying merchandise, matchday programmes, food, hospitality etc. It is the same people giving over and over and a hell of a lot more than Les as a % of their net worth. What I have given to the Well Society is the equivalent of Les giving over £20-£50m. It is the same for many. The reality is that those who can afford to and even those who cannot have and are giving. You can only go the WELL (pardon the pun) so many times..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuwell Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 I get that Les is a serious business man. I get that he wants the club to be self sufficient. I appreciate he provided much needed income at a time of hardship. But I am struggling with the fact that as a reputed Billionaire - he is wanting his loans paid in full OR ELSE. The sad fact is - that as covered before in my post and many others. Those that are interested in signing up to the Well Society and then providing a monthly direct debit are generally also buying a season ticket or 2/3/4 and buying merchandise, matchday programmes, food, hospitality etc. It is the same people giving over and over and a hell of a lot more than Les as a % of their net worth. What I have given to the Well Society is the equivalent of Les giving over £20-£50m. It is the same for many. The reality is that those who can afford to and even those who cannot have and are giving. You can only go the WELL (pardon the pun) so many times..... Rightly or wrongly the way I look at Les and his money is that he married into it and as such he might only be using money borrowed from his i laws which he is expected to return. So I see it as him giving us the room to get sorted. Alternatively he might be the kind of person who doesn't just give his money away to hopeless causes and want us to demonstrate that we can look after the club. Either way I'm happy for the chance we have and fully intend to try my best to make this work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Rightly or wrongly the way I look at Les and his money is that he married into it and as such he might only be using money borrowed from his i laws which he is expected to return. So I see it as him giving us the room to get sorted. Alternatively he might be the kind of person who doesn't just give his money away to hopeless causes and want us to demonstrate that we can look after the club. Either way I'm happy for the chance we have and fully intend to try my best to make this work. I think regardless of how much money you have you don't just give it away or donate unless it's to a cause that you resonate with Like the first poster has put its all relative,billionaire or not,his own wealth or not. You don't just give it away. In many ways giving it without a need for return or incentive to return in my eyes can be more damaging If he didn't beat the drum that it's a help up not a hand out, do you honestly think as many would have signed up? We would all have rested on our laurels and thought ach we have a billionaire owner At the fans forum I actually went up and thanked the man and said thank you Because for all the wealth in the world he didn't need to do what he has done. We are relying on a large number of us to keep the faith and pull people together to get involved but if we could have one eye in the future and have a club realizing the ambition rather than be at 1 persons mercy it would be a wonderful and pretty inspirational experience for every other club to want 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Interesting to read how people perceive the WS concept . For me it was never about any benefit or return on my investment of roughly £2.50/week to a football club . The way I see it is that firstly it's my football club , the club I've loved watching for 48years . It's certainly not a financial investment where I would hope for a financial return , that's what stocks and shares are for . For me it's one thing only . A way of helping my club out in a small financial way so others can enjoy the journey I've had and hopefully at the same time secure it's future . Unless someone tells me a better way to do this . For people who are still thinking about it all I would say is don't over analyse it . Just do it . If eventually you think it's not working then stop your D/D but a least give it a chance . Some people who are a bit reluctant say oh we just need to find our level . No thanks I've been there a few times . I like the level were currently at and I would think most fans are too .Reading some of the hysteria that came from some fans pre play offs it appears they don't won't us to find our level either . So all am saying is at least give it a chance to work ,forget benefits to you and help our club out not a club out Good post. For me too, its never been a case of "Whats in it for me?" or "Will I get value for money?". I accept however that there's a range of views and so be it. Folk can choose to join or not join. What I don't understand though is the view that "We'll just need to find our level". What if that level is liquidation and oblivion? Should we be fatalistic and just accept that that would be the natural way of things and football will evolve. I too can't just sit back and watch what happens in a detached way - a bit like watching a natural history documentary where the cameraman films predator V prey without interfering. All that said, I haven't been overly impressed with the way the Society has conducted affairs. When was the last fundraising event for example and when is the next one? |You would think that given our financial targets events would play an important part. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Took the stance of not a penny more, would be interested to find if I'm in the minority of original members who have decided same. I too haven't been overly impressed by the way the Society has conducted affairs. The more you scrutinise the dealings with Mr Hutchinson, the dafter & more pie in the sky it becomes. For the life of me, how have those in control of several hundred thousand of other people's money agreed to it? Carried away on this wave of optimism brought by a billionaire tax exile who wants to give a hand up not a hand out... He has agreed timescales for his monies to be returned which in so far, We've missed the first repayment & it remains to be seen that we'll make the other required 2, thus voiding the agreement Were the repayments to be made in a timely fashion, where does the funding to run the club's affairs then come from? No plan B, unless we use the cash on Euromillions entries, bound to get lucky eh? The cynic? Society board cares about the usual suspects getting 15 minutes of fame if the scheme miraculously worked & not a lot else. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Not quite in the "not a penny more" camp just yet. But before I do contribute further I want to know whether the Football Club is still losing money on a day to day basis. If it is, and the trend over the past few years has not been reversed, then I can see any funds the Society does have/ingathers disappearing very quickly. Surely Financial projections must have been drawn up when the new regime took over. Are we on track? Is the new Business model working? If, on the other hand, the Club is operating in the black then the Society monies are likely to grow.... Providing a means to assist the repayment of Les Hutchison's Loans and thereafter establish a Contingeancy Fund to support the Football Club through short term funding. On that basis I would be more than willing to contribute on a monthly basis. I am sure others would be similarly encouraged if there was some positive news in this regard. What does worry me is that it seems the Society's has taken on the full burden of repaying Les. That should first of all be the responsibility of the Football Club with the Society as a fall back only. Or are we admitting defeat? Thankful though I am for Les's help, I am more concerned about long term planning and seeing the Football Club operate on a sustainable manner. If the Football Club is seen to be making progress I would hope Mr Hutchison would show some patience and understanding. After all, he is hardly in desperate need of the money. I guess what I'm saying is that the Club needs to be able to stand on it's own two feet and for that to be established before I part with any more cash. To rely on everyday funding from the Society cannot continue indefinitely. That is only papering over the cracks. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 The way I read it from he initial Les conversations/comms was: - He puts money up now. - We invest to get the right structure and team. - That may put us in a loss making position initially but within the 5 years we should be operating in profit/break even position due to the investment up front, returns that brings AND, importantly, the ongoing subs from WS. - Within the 5 years we have certain amounts to pay back and targets to hit to show him that the overall investment and setup will work. For the paymentsame if the club can't make then the WS will help of they can. So, my thoughts are we are probably not running a break even position right now and not quite hitting the targets he set. Not to say we won't long term. But it does not sound like at the moment Les would let it go the full 5 years as he want to protect this investment. Could be wrong. Seems he will be monitoring it and of we aren't hitting 2k WS numbers by end of the year the business plan may be revisited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 The way I read it from he initial Les conversations/comms was: - He puts money up now. - We invest to get the right structure and team. - That may put us in a loss making position initially but within the 5 years we should be operating in profit/break even position due to the investment up front, returns that brings AND, importantly, the ongoing subs from WS. - Within the 5 years we have certain amounts to pay back and targets to hit to show him that the overall investment and setup will work. For the paymentsame if the club can't make then the WS will help of they can. So, my thoughts are we are probably not running a break even position right now and not quite hitting the targets he set. Not to say we won't long term. But it does not sound like at the moment Les would let it go the full 5 years as he want to protect this investment. Could be wrong. Seems he will be monitoring it and of we aren't hitting 2k WS numbers by end of the year the business plan may be revisited. So just to be clear, the club are due to make the payments and the WS will help where necessary. This was my initial understanding. So all this noise via the Daily Mail about the 1st payment being missed - it's the club that have defaulted on the payment? We could do with some transparency on the numbers rather than LH running to a Tory rag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 So just to be clear, the club are due to make the payments and the WS will help where necessary. This was my initial understanding. So all this noise via the Daily Mail about the 1st payment being missed - it's the club that have defaulted on the payment? We could do with some transparency on the numbers rather than LH running to a Tory rag. I may be wrong but the way I read the statement was that the club and society are jointly in agreement to repay the the loan to Les. Unless the club has suddenly moved into profit, Id image the loan could only ever realistically be repaid by Society funds. If the repayment hasn't been made, then I can only guess it's because the Society doesn't have those funds either, due to the lack of numbers signing up. No matter what scenario is correct, the defaulted payment must be a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Not quite in the "not a penny more" camp just yet. But before I do contribute further I want to know whether the Football Club is still losing money on a day to day basis. If it is, and the trend over the past few years has not been reversed, then I can see any funds the Society does have/ingathers disappearing very quickly. Surely Financial projections must have been drawn up when the new regime took over. Are we on track? Is the new Business model working? If, on the other hand, the Club is operating in the black then the Society monies are likely to grow.... Providing a means to assist the repayment of Les Hutchison's Loans and thereafter establish a Contingeancy Fund to support the Football Club through short term funding. On that basis I would be more than willing to contribute on a monthly basis. I am sure others would be similarly encouraged if there was some positive news in this regard. This is it for me. What other company would you invest in without knowing whether it is making or losing money or breaking even. I also not quite in the "not a penny more" camp, but I would like to know whether it is a bottomless pit. My initial investment will have been used up and that is fine. But if I am to sign up for monthly on top of that + season ticket, hospitality, Home top, other merchandise. If the Sh1t is going to hit the fan. I would rather save my money till then and help out. I get it is a catch 22. But do I make my initial investment in the Well Society (which I have done), then pay a monthly sum - which I would consider doing, only to find that Les buggers off into the distance and the only people that can save the club are the fans including myself. So yet another sum of money. I LOVE my club but that is asking a LOT. I think this is the predicament for most.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I can't wait to play in the Lowland league Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numpty Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 What other company would you invest in without knowing whether it is making or losing money or breaking even. None, but this is not an investment, and many club owners have stated over the years that you don't put money into a football club if you want to make a profit. The only potential positive return is the survival of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mintymac Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Investment ? Certainly not . Investment and some kind of return ? Definitely not . But yes I agree more transparency required as we all seem to have our own ideas on how it will work or not as the case may be . Maybe if any society board member reads this they might like to consider a meeting with society and non society members as it's all getting a bit blurred . This article in the paper has given people more questions than answers and we need some clarification/transparency . Not having a clear simple message can potentially put people off . So if ur reading this it's over to you board ????!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Investment ? Certainly not . Investment and some kind of return ? Definitely not . But yes I agree more transparency required as we all seem to have our own ideas on how it will work or not as the case may be . Maybe if any society board member reads this they might like to consider a meeting with society and non society members as it's all getting a bit blurred . This article in the paper has given people more questions than answers and we need some clarification/transparency . Not having a clear simple message can potentially put people off . So if ur reading this it's over to you board ????!!!! The Society board chose confidentiality over informing the members of their actions and took an executive decision to accept the Hutchinson deal leaving us with debt three times greater than our remaining capital. The responsibility for this lies with a handful of people and they are the ones who will have to make it work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'd like to officially start the ball rolling on a society meeting to get clarity once and for all on the points raised This forum posts poses far too many questions and hypothetical outcomes and to expect more to contribute to the fund, the society need to hold regular meetings and perhaps an "idiots guide" to how the society works and aims to work in the future if successful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 All I would like is confirmation that the Football Club is using the breathing space provided by the Hutchison funding to get it's financial affairs in order, thus ensuring that when he does up and leave the Business can continue to operate. They should know by now if financial projections are working out given the "expertise" that was drafted in as a condition of Les Hutchison's assistance. A big thing was made of the amateurish set up he inherited and the need for change. Whether the Well Society is privy to that monthly financial information I don't know, but they should be if they are expected to pick up the tab. I accept that it will take time to turn things round and possibly as long as the 5 years mentioned. However a simple statement that we are on track might ease some concerns.If it's true that the Club (with or without Society support) was unable to meet the first scheduled Loan repayment, that suggests to me that matters are not going as planned or maybe that a too optimistic a view was taken regarding the repayment schedule. Although the take up of Society Membership is an important matter, surely the return to profitability of the Football Club as soon as possible is the main issue. If that is not being achieved, the Society (The Fans) cannot cover the losses indefinitely. Chucking away good money after bad and all that. I desperately want the Club to survive and the Society to succeed but the pressure that is being put on fans to contribute further in the absence of any meaningful clarity is unacceptable. The silence from the Football Club regarding non football matters is deafening, bearing in mind that any funds we donate are really for their benefit. Oh, and for the sake of clarity, I do look upon my contributions as an investment with a potential for financial gain. However, before I make further donations, I want to know that Motherwell Football Club is keeping their end of the bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I may be wrong but the way I read the statement was that the club and society are jointly in agreement to repay the the loan to Les. Unless the club has suddenly moved into profit, Id image the loan could only ever realistically be repaid by Society funds. If the repayment hasn't been made, then I can only guess it's because the Society doesn't have those funds either, due to the lack of numbers signing up. No matter what scenario is correct, the defaulted payment must be a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I posted the link on another thread - Page 4 of the news section on the WS site spells it out fairly clearly. Loan is to club, club pay the instalments back. But if there is a shortfall the WS have agreed to help out. If we missed a payment, the club didn't quite have the funds because, I assume, not in a break even position yet (or for long enough yet to get excess). Also it would seem the WS couldn't help out. Reasons are not clear for that 100% but would seem to be an injection of funds to the club of 120k by the society between Jan - Jun as well as maybe not as many WS sign ups didn't help. The latter probably prompting the recent noise from oor Les. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 What about the dosh from Lee Irwin? Has that purely gone to the playing budget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 What about the dosh from Lee Irwin? Has that purely gone to the playing budget? Depends if we even have it yet I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Maybe we can give him an IOU then and he can shut his piehole for a while 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Sounds fine to me. I have Word 97 if it needs typed up. haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 What about the dosh from Lee Irwin? Has that purely gone to the playing budget? Knowing the way these things work probably payable over 4 years in 12 instalments!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mintymac Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'd like to officially start the ball rolling on a society meeting to get clarity once and for all on the points raised This forum posts poses far too many questions and hypothetical outcomes and to expect more to contribute to the fund, the society need to hold regular meetings and perhaps an "idiots guide" to how the society works and aims to work in the future if successful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mintymac Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Here here good post . Am all for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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