St.mirren V Motherwell 14/9/13

[Onthefringes]

1379307333[/url]' post='396059']

Why give the Police any reason at all to be "heavy handed"? If there are no smoke bombs there is no issue. Don't take them to the game it's not clever and it's not fair on the surrounding supporters who are innocent bystanders and are herded by the Police as they were in the same area.

 

The Bois are a credit and well liked by other supporters due to the atmosphere they create. Don't let them become an embarrassment.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story... No smoke bombs, no issue? Not condoning their use, harmless as it is, the ineffective stewarding/policing commenced long before any smoke pellet went off.

 

I'd question how, after a visit by our own safety officer to that section at half-time that the matter escalated too...

 

 

[daver]

Whether it was thrown or not is irrelevant. As already stated the offence was committed as soon as they entered the ground with it no matter if their intention was to throw it, set it off or keep it in their pocket to keep their baws warm. Plenty people have complained that the police don't take action against OF supporters for sectarian chants but are quite happy to have the police turn a blind eye to Motherwell fans offences.Yes they should take action against OF supporters but two wrongs don't make a right. The simple fact is the law was broken and the police acted as they are supposed to. Where they heavy handed? I don't know i wasn't there but no smoke bomb means no police action simple as that. You can't knowingly break the law then complain about the actions of police. Go to the game have fun, support the team and entertain the rest of the supporters with your fantastic routines but no need to attract the attention of the police by bringing banned items to the games.

 

I know the offence is to take them into the ground but I think throwing them seems worse and would be seen by the police as an escalation which they would use to justify their actions.

 

I didn't see any get thrown but the claim was made and I was trying to establish the facts. I counted 4 smoke bombs, all within clearly identifiable sections of the crowd. There could only have been a maximum of four perpetrators in these obvious positions so why surround an entire section of the stand? Or were they so inept from the start that they couldn't home in on their likely suspects and needed to call in support in ridiculous and confrontational numbers?

 

More police were arriving in two's and three's from the entrance in front of me throughout the second half to the extent they were milling about below at the end as they had nowhere to go. Mental.

[Guest]

Only embarrassment I see in all this is Police Scotland 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' tactics and the number of our own fans ready to turn on the Bois at the first opportunity. That's embarrassing.

 

This is what I've found really worrying. Nothing like waiting until the very first opportunity available to stick the boot in. Some of the drama queens doing the rounds online just now are really tiresome. Yeah, sure, everyone I imagine has an opinion on what they do, but immediately tarring them with the 'ashamed/embarrassment' brush is a bit bloody rich, given how much they've done.

 

Minimal issue kicked up to something major. It is exactly the same as Aberdeen a couple of years ago as the stewards/police get up in the faces of the younger members of the support in an attempt provoke a reaction. I'm a fairly oversized guy as a 6'4 manchild, and strangely, no-one came near me or my similarly proportioned pal that day, despite being right in the middle of it. Its nothing more than bullying.

[johnstone]

 

Do you think this lot got their names taken and arrested? Doubt it.

 

Total over reaction from all authorities involved.

[Judge Jules]

I think i know what the police are scared of when it comes to ultra groups like the bois and the scum brigade, i've heard that they are scared of the brigade basically becoming scotlands newest casual mob cause they have been involved in "disorder" up and down scotland and abroad but that doesn't mean all other ultra groups should be treated the same. Police need to have a look at themselves and Motherwell FC need to come out and support the lads publically so the press, police and football authoroties don't jump all over this minor incident and turn it in to something its not !! Stand together bois !!

[steelboy]

I think i know what the police are scared of when it comes to ultra groups like the bois and the scum brigade, i've heard that they are scared of the brigade basically becoming scotlands newest casual mob cause they have been involved in "disorder" up and down scotland and abroad but that doesn't mean all other ultra groups should be treated the same. Police need to have a look at themselves and Motherwell FC need to come out and support the lads publically so the press, police and football authoroties don't jump all over this minor incident and turn it in to something its not !! Stand together bois !!

 

the police aren't scared of anything. they want it to look their are serious problems around football so they can tell the scottish government they need they more money and more overtime. it's a racket.

 

you can guarantee the plainclothes matalan squad will be sitting in a tactical meeting today discussing a situation that a half competent high school assistant head teacher would have sort out in two minutes as if it was the london riots.

[daver]

The club can't come out and defend them though because of the smoke bombs. If they hadn't been set off then I'd like to think they would speak out against heavy handed policing but they can't say anything as an offence has been committed.

[Tassinari]

From where I was standing, it looked as though things started going downhill, when cups of ginger were sprayed at the stewards when the 2 young lads were lifted.

[john_M_F_C]

http://www.express.c...moke-bomb-probe

 

from that article:

 

"It was set to be St Mirren’s first match without a police presence but they then had to be called in as stewards struggled to keep a lid on things."

 

Yet, there was undercover police there from before k/o? without a police presence indeed.

[makaveli]

from that article:

 

"It was set to be St Mirren's first match without a police presence but they then had to be called in as stewards struggled to keep a lid on things."

 

Yet, there was undercover police there from before k/o? without a police presence indeed.

 

There is undercover at every game, they've been spotted a few times at firpark this season

[The Skipper]

Taking smoke bombs into football grounds is not permitted. What bit of that is difficult to understand? Unless they change the rules, anyone doing it runs the risk of being lifted and causing a problem for people in the immediate vicinity who are obeying the rules.

 

I would be really pissed off if I was beside someone who lit a smoke bomb and I was lifted by association. If you don't like the rules don't go.

[fatcalf]

Taking smoke bombs into football grounds is not permitted. What bit of that is difficult to understand? Unless they change the rules, anyone doing it runs the risk of being lifted and causing a problem for people in the immediate vicinity who are obeying the rules.

 

I would be really pissed off if I was beside someone who lit a smoke bomb and I was lifted by association. If you don't like the rules don't go.

 

 

[Onthefringes]

Taking smoke bombs into football grounds is not permitted. What bit of that is difficult to understand? Unless they change the rules, anyone doing it runs the risk of being lifted and causing a problem for people in the immediate vicinity who are obeying the rules.

 

I would be really pissed off if I was beside someone who lit a smoke bomb and I was lifted by association. If you don't like the rules don't go.

Wind your neck in. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

 

We get they are not permitted. The main drivers in the group took that aboard previously. Reactive maybe, pro-active definitely as they move forward... novel steps are being put in place to have a word with the pyro-mad without installing a group structure, alienating the more youthful. With representation from the club and wait for it, Police Scotland. This WILL make a strong group stronger...

 

Club viewpoint? Doubt the club plan to 'slate' and there will be concern about the tactics employed by the authorities. The clubs two major concerns, relating to Police is-

 

• The worry that we'll lose our Police-free status thus recurring inflated costs - having worked for years to get this almost down to zero and
• As a result of that, less control so the bois in the ground can have the 'freedom' at Fir Park. That's why if/when they do say anything, it has to absolutely be sympathetic to the issues faced yesterday (minus pyro obviously) but, also mindful of not picking a fight with the Police that the club will never win and only end up paying for (quite literally) down the line...

 

Positives far outweigh the negatives towards these lads. They understand they'll never please all the people all of the time, but, knowing those that I do, they will have a right good crack at it. To them? I doft my cap - keep the faith.

[Quinn91]

I find it really hard to understand why people cannot grasp the reasons for fans being in an uproar against the police here. No one has condoned smoke bombs being brought into the stadium, or being set off during the game, or being thrown toward the pitch, which is still to be proved. No one has argued that this was the start of the problems, however does setting off 3/4 smoke bombs merit the response given. My answer would be no.

 

In my opinion there were many incidents that were not dealt with appropriately by the police during Saturdays game.

Firstly was the way they conducted arrests on possible suspects, normally what happens is the police would view CCTV and then move on the suspect, where as Saturday was a case of move in and grab on the advice of stewards. Which has lead to one lad in particular being lifted, and It has now been discovered that this lad is innocent. So there's the first thing that's wrong.

 

The whole attitude of the police toward any member of the support who were confident enough to question there actions, were then threatened with arrest.

 

Stop and search on anyone they chose with what seemed like very little intelligence, ranging from lads in their 20s to boys who are 15 being taken to the toilet/concourse to be searched. Which opens up a whole host of issues surrounding that.

 

The kettling in and detail taking, searching and arresting of fans in the end section, with the majority innocent of any of the smoke bomb offences. Remembering that two or three people had already been arrested , therefore the police were looking for one maybe two people in that full section.

 

Due to the kettling in of fans, parents were separated from their children. Which caused uspet on both sides, with the police being very reluctant to co-operate and allow these distressed children to find their parents. So much so that one parent was threatened with arrest if he did not leave when he was trying to get his son.

 

It's already been said but someone hit the panic button and called in the police who were at ibrox policing the rangers game. Many officers who came in were under the illusion a riot was taking place.

 

When you look back at the kettling in of fans, I would applaud the bois involved as it could have went sour very very quickly. If the lads began to push against the police line it had the possibility of turning ugly. So using restraint and common sense, something missing from the police, the situation did not escalate further than it already had.

 

All in all the police intimidated, threatened and incited crowd trouble. Refused people their civil and human rights. For what? An incident that could have and should have been dealt with in a much more appropriate way.

 

Now let me ask you this? For you all out there who have children, would you have been happy for your 15 year old son to be searched by police with no responsible adult/guardian of that child present? Or for your child to become distressed due to a situation that escalated due to the actions of the very people who are meant to protect you?

 

These are the points that the Heavy Hands Empty Stands campaign surely will look to address. It is about time we all stood together against the oppression that we see in Scottish football grounds. There are much bigger issues than a few smokes.

[Onthefringes]

I find it really hard to understand why people cannot grasp the reasons for fans being in an uproar against the police here. No one has condoned smoke bombs being brought into the stadium, or being set off during the game, or being thrown toward the pitch, which is still to be proved. No one has argued that this was the start of the problems, however does setting off 3/4 smoke bombs merit the response given. My answer would be no.

 

In my opinion there were many incidents that were not dealt with appropriately by the police during Saturdays game.

Firstly was the way they conducted arrests on possible suspects, normally what happens is the police would view CCTV and then move on the suspect, where as Saturday was a case of move in and grab on the advice of stewards. Which has lead to one lad in particular being lifted, and It has now been discovered that this lad is innocent. So there's the first thing that's wrong.

 

The whole attitude of the police toward any member of the support who were confident enough to question there actions, were then threatened with arrest.

 

Stop and search on anyone they chose with what seemed like very little intelligence, ranging from lads in their 20s to boys who are 15 being taken to the toilet/concourse to be searched. Which opens up a whole host of issues surrounding that.

 

The kettling in and detail taking, searching and arresting of fans in the end section, with the majority innocent of any of the smoke bomb offences. Remembering that two or three people had already been arrested , therefore the police were looking for one maybe two people in that full section.

 

Due to the kettling in of fans, parents were separated from their children. Which caused uspet on both sides, with the police being very reluctant to co-operate and allow these distressed children to find their parents. So much so that one parent was threatened with arrest if he did not leave when he was trying to get his son.

 

It's already been said but someone hit the panic button and called in the police who were at ibrox policing the rangers game. Many officers who came in were under the illusion a riot was taking place.

 

When you look back at the kettling in of fans, I would applaud the bois involved as it could have went sour very very quickly. If the lads began to push against the police line it had the possibility of turning ugly. So using restraint and common sense, something missing from the police, the situation did not escalate further than it already had.

 

All in all the police intimidated, threatened and incited crowd trouble. Refused people their civil and human rights. For what? An incident that could have and should have been dealt with in a much more appropriate way.

 

Now let me ask you this? For you all out there who have children, would you have been happy for your 15 year old son to be searched by police with no responsible adult/guardian of that child present? Or for your child to become distressed due to a situation that escalated due to the actions of the very people who are meant to protect you?

 

These are the points that the Heavy Hands Empty Stands campaign surely will look to address. It is about time we all stood together against the oppression that we see in Scottish football grounds. There are much bigger issues than a few smokes.

Bang on the money

[jim64]

As a parent of a 15 yr old who was at the game I was appalled by the police and stewards actions. The bois are trying to create an atmosphere and not directly harming anyone Christ if I was 15 again I'd be doing it myself

[Steve Diggle]

The club need to get involved here.

 

The other clubs need to pulled round the table and a set of clear guidelines outlined.

 

The stewarding at Paisley, from personal experience is a diabolical disgrace, has been for a good few seasons. Incredibly bad witnessed first hand. Dundee Utd - shocking. Sellick, by all accounts probably on a par with St Mirren (stopped going long ago)

 

The bottom line is that guys are going to a football match - not doon the fuckin swingpark

 

There needs to be 'sensible' stewarding that only kicks in when anything really sinister kicks of - a kind of sensible hand off approach.

 

You stand back and let folk enjoy themselves - hey ho folk enjoy themselves, no harm done.

 

You step in everytime someone takes their phone out their back pocket (in case its a flare and SOMEONE'S GOOOONNNNNA DDDIIIIIIIEEEEEEE, then there's only one place it's gonna go isn't there?)

 

 

The down side to this is that even though we know that the smoke pellets are pretty innocuous any statement from the club and any agreements by the other clubs authorities just won't allow them. These folk don't understand the difference between pellets and flares and won't take the risk moving forward. They'll maintain their cart blanche ban. And its gonna have to be something that the bois need to make a decision on moving forward. It appears to be the small chink of light that's letting Young Adolf and the Dayglo Stewards (great name for a band) step in.

 

In saying that I think we've crossed a line at the weekend - time for the club to back the lads as much as they can.

 

Guys - if the club back you - you know they're gonna ask you to ditch the pellets.

[weeyin]

Except it's not quite bang on the money because it seems that everyone does understand the uproar against the police action.

 

However, you are allowed to disapprove of the police action *and* question why anyone is stupid enough to let off a smoke bomb in an SPFL ground in full knowledge that it would likely have a negative impact on the club and the bois excellent reputation.

 

Condemning the smoke bombers in no way means you are condoning the police.

[Quinn91]

Yes you are allowed to question both. However my point is that the issues that took place cannot/should not be justified by 3/4 smoke bombs. Again we all agree and I know we are not condoning any action involving the smokes.

However surely we need to move toward the more pressing issues involved on Saturday rather than continuing to go on about smoke bombs. I can reassure you all that the bois are dealing with with smokes behind the scenes, as much as is physically possible.

Again time to unite and get this sorted, the heavy hands statement went viral early last night, and is now nearing 60,000 views on different social media outlets.

[fatcalf]

It'll move on from the smokes to something else if the Bois manage to forego them. Police Scotland and the SNP need to see this football bill producing results i.e. arrest figures or banning orders, to do that they need to engineer situations to show their presence is still required. With little or no hooliganism at games now it stands to reason the slightest misdemeanour will suffice for them to flex their muscles and show the Government their budget should be secured in future.

 

It's all a game, Bois need to box clever here cos they're an obvious target but the good news is the opposition urnae really that clever so a bit of creative thinking should win the day lads.

 

Mon the Bois

[Goggles & Flippers]

Jeez, I'm guessing everyone contributing to this forum grew up in West Central Scotland? Are we oblivious to some basic facts of the environment we live in?

 

Also, the argument of posting pictures of what goes on in other countries is pointless and adds nothing to the argument. We live in Scotland and the culture and environment here suggests that the authorities don't think that behaviour is conducive to public order and safety. Whither this view is correct is up to you as an individual. Yes we can't light flares at football matches, smoke in pubs or drink in public, however we have free healthcare, can walk the streets relatively safely at night and there is low to no level of corruption. Everywhere on the planet has its pro's and con's associated with living there.

 

Another thing that serves no purpose is comparing us with other teams within our own country. I'm referring to the likes of the treatment of Celtic and the Green Brigade opposed to us. The Police establish what they see as easy wins. With the size of our support they can make progress/achieve targets, due to the size of the Celtic support would require a significant number of bodies on the ground to enforce the same law and no doubt result in a bigger furore. Granted its neither fair or equal but its what it is.

 

For example, basic human nature is to go for the easiest option, despite high moral intentions, the caveman part of our brains suggests that in the case of a 50-50 a referee will err on the side of what will give the least hassle. He will encounter and interact a significant number of OF fans in the week(s) after he's officiated in one of their games and a couple of fans of other teams if at all. Consequently they will have that in the back of their head, buried deep down and will have a bearing despite his attempts to show impartial integrity.

 

Put yourself in this scenario, you see a group of five guys loitering around your car opposed to one, you'd probably tell the one "fannybaws, do one!", with the former, you have to stop and think opposed to acting on impulse. Same thing with a large group or a small one.

 

Like it or not, smokebombs carry a panic button status among the authorities. Personally I'm not a fan and don't think they add anything, I'd rather those buying them would chip in for another drum, I'm sure the club would too if we get hit with a fine.

 

It simple, if the smokebombs didn't go off then the escalation during the second half wouldn't have happened. Any over zealous stewards there may have tried to find something but it wouldn't have carried the same weight.

 

Police Scotland have to be asked about why someone there did the same as Chick and sensationalised the event. Well, as we live in a blame culture now where people constantly try to cover their arse, its evident that the police presence there decided that action had to be taken as to ignore it could have came back on them. It's evident that someone thought the stewards weren't capable of dealing with it.

 

As a taxpayer who has recently been the victim of crime I'd rather they were out harassing the bad guys than dealing with this niff-naff and trivia.

[Frazzie]

It's all a game, Bois need to box clever here....

 

Exactly right, which means leaving the smoke bombs at home. Don't get me wrong- I like them, but what I like even more is the fans being able to get one up on the high viz hoardes.

 

Sing and dance and watch their raging faces knowing they can't do a thing about it because no rules are being broken. As soon as yellow smoke is seen, they can wade in and justify doing whatever and whoever they like. And if that happens and their arrest figures go up, their numbers go up in the future making for a worse atmosphere and costing our clubs money.

[Guest]

When you look back at the kettling in of fans, I would applaud the bois involved as it could have went sour very very quickly. If the lads began to push against the police line it had the possibility of turning ugly. So using restraint and common sense, something missing from the police, the situation did not escalate further than it already had.

 

To me, this should not be underestimated. Any kind of reaction here could've escalated it massively, so credit where it is due for sure.

 

Again time to unite and get this sorted, the heavy hands statement went viral early last night, and is now nearing 60,000 views on different social media outlets.

 

This turning up on the IVF, Clapton Ultras and Football Is Radical blogs has been a bit of a surprise this morning.

[john_M_F_C]

Taking smoke bombs into football grounds is not permitted. What bit of that is difficult to understand? Unless they change the rules, anyone doing it runs the risk of being lifted and causing a problem for people in the immediate vicinity who are obeying the rules.

 

I would be really pissed off if I was beside someone who lit a smoke bomb and I was lifted by association. If you don't like the rules don't go.

 

you can't just arrest folk via guilt by association. That isn't the rules.

 

That is the entire point here.

[Tassinari]

Art and part is a term used in Scots law to denote the aiding or abetting in the perpetration of a crime, or being an accessory before or at the perpetration of the crime. There is no such offence recognized in Scotland as that of being an accessory after the fact.

 

Under section 293 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, a person may be convicted of, and punished for, a contravention of any enactment, notwithstanding that he was guilty of such contravention as art and part only.