2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[Stevie73]

St Midden meant to be announcing Lowry later on today, think our priority is two CF, hopefully one in for Sat and a commanding CB

[bobbybingo]

22 minutes ago, stv said:

No he was just fkin rotten.

 

He's always been fuckin rotten?

[SteelmaninOZ]

3 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

He's always been fuckin rotten?

Who? Johnnie? 

[SteelmaninOZ]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

In about 16 attempts Shaw didn't score once........a bit like my record in Hamilton Palace in the early nineties!! 😜😜

[Mad Dog]

43 minutes ago, stv said:

No he was just fkin rotten.

 

Thinking back to the furore surrounding certain signings that supposedly hadn't had a proven goalscoring record prior to signing for us - Shaw did. Not defending him as it really didn't work out but on paper he is the kind of player that we ought to be looking out for.

[wellfan]

With six days to go, Kettlewell is getting his excuses in already. Tick tock.

https://www.thenational.scot/sport/24074093.striker-scenario-evolving-time-says-motherwell-boss-kettlewell/

Motherwell manager Stuart Kettlewell admits his striker hunt is an ever-changing scenario as he prepares to face St Johnstone with Theo Bair as his only experienced option.

The departures of Mika Biereth, Conor Wilkinson and Oli Shaw plus a hamstring tear for Jon Obika, who faces “at least another few weeks” out have left Motherwell desperately short up front.

Mark Ferrie will return to the squad following the end of his loan spell with Stenhousemuir, although the 18-year-old could not break into the runaway League 2 leaders’ starting line-up.

Motherwell were this week linked with a move to take James Scott back to Fir Park from Exeter but he joined former Well boss Stephen Robinson at St Mirren instead.

On his hunt for a striker, Kettlewell said: “It’s been the priority since the start of the window but as we all know January is a tough window.

“We have spoken to a lot of players and clubs and tried to dress up a number of situations, some of which looked really positive, and sometimes you fall flat on your face.

“But I suppose that is part and parcel of it in a transfer window. You get a bit annoyed and frustrated at a number of people along the way but you always have that plan B, C and D and think about other routes you can go down.

“And you need to have players that want to come to your club – the guys that jump through hoops to get here are always the best players for you.”

Given Obika has suffered three hamstring injuries and only started seven league games since first joining the club 12 months ago, Kettlewell would naturally want more than one striker in.

But he said: “I want to get one in first and then I will see where I am from there. What does that leave us in terms of finances?

“There are so many things in question, everything depends on money and availability.

“The situation is evolving all the time, we are having to shift the goalposts depending on being turned down by a player or whether we can afford one, or if we can afford him does that mean it’s only one rather than two?

“Because we have had so many injuries, we sometimes have to think about having that cover and ensuring it’s maybe more than one.”

After Arsenal recalled Biereth to send him out to Austrian title challengers Sturm Graz and successful spells for the likes of James Furlong and Brodie Spencer plus current loanee Georgie Gent, Kettlewell is hoping to persuade major clubs to trust him with their young players.

“We have been working in that fashion, if we are speaking to clubs about young loan players we believe we can evidence the opportunities here and that they will flourish in this environment,” he said.

“But that sometimes still comes down to money and relationships with other clubs.”

Kettlewell might have some more experience to call on in Perth after naming six 17-year-olds on his bench for last weekend’s win over Alloa.

New Zealand international Callan Elliot and former Hearts midfielder Sam Nicholson joined this week but both are short of match fitness, while Dan Casey and Shane Blaney are back on the training pitch following injury but will not necessarily be ready.

[fizoxy]

Nothing mind blowing there. It's a sellers market in January, and find me a team that doesn't want a striker.

[AllyMax]

30 minutes ago, wellfan said:

With six days to go, Kettlewell is getting his excuses in already. Tick tock.

 

Why don't you send him YOUR list of available strikers with the right pedigree and available within our budget.

Either that or learn the differences between excuses an reality.

Either that or just stop being a fud and STFU.

[Wellfan91]

One must ask if we are struggling to bring a striker in, why did we let Wilkinson go in pursue of first team football? He would play every week between now and end of season if we fail to bring someone in this window. Granted he was rotten but better than nothing!

[dennyc]

35 minutes ago, wellfan said:

With six days to go, Kettlewell is getting his excuses in already. Tick tock.

Sounds nothing like an excuse, more like a touch of honesty and reality. Which is something fans usually cry out for. A clear and precise outline of our situation. You should be applauding that the Club is actively looking for a striker or two?

That is unless you are in the minority determined to find fault with everything our Manager does or says. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but inventing grounds for having a go only detracts from any valid points you make. 

[fizoxy]

I think Wilkinson left prior to the Biereth recall. It's a tricky one as well, he wanted to move closer to home, and while playing out the season with us may have made sense, as soon as another club is interested it would have been difficult to say no and risk having an unsettled player going through the motions during a relegation fight.

[texanwellfan]

19 minutes ago, Wellfan91 said:

One must ask if we are struggling to bring a striker in, why did we let Wilkinson go in pursue of first team football? He would play every week between now and end of season if we fail to bring someone in this window. Granted he was rotten but better than nothing!

Not sure that I totally agree with your last statement. “Better than nothing” is not always the case. Kind of like “no news is good news” not always the case! 

[David]

6 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Surely you mean he asisted in 2 goals David? He didn't score at all.

That's exactly what I meant. The price I pay for using my phone to mess about on a forum when I should be working 👀

[wellfan]

33 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

Why don't you send him YOUR list of available strikers with the right pedigree and available within our budget.

Either that or learn the differences between excuses an reality.

Either that or just stop being a fud and STFU.

9 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Sounds nothing like an excuse, more like a touch of honesty and reality. Which is something fans usually cry out for. A clear and precise outline of our situation. You should be applauding that the Club is actively looking for a striker or two?

That is unless you are in the minority determined to find fault with everything our Manager does or says. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but inventing grounds for having a go only detracts from any valid points you make. 

To address both posts, I don’t know how many times I and others have to say this, but here it is again:

We're in this position because he made an arse of the summer window in terms of strikers. He's the manager and it's on him. That's my view and others can have their view, but if some people want to call me a fud then they've lost the debate.

He resigned Obika knowing fine well that we was an injury risk. Poor recruitment.

He signed Wilkinson, who contributed little and is now gone. Poor recruitment  

He signed Shaw, who contributed nothing and is now gone. Poor recruitment. 

He signed Biereth, which is his only good bit of business, but it's risky business to end up in the position of having to rely on loanees, and he's now gone.

He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. 

He put Tierney out on loan and released McKinstry, and didn't replace them, effectively meaning we could only play one style as he settled on having no number 10s or wingers. This may have been a budget decision, however. 

I could go on, but there's no point.

The outcome of all of this is that we're 2 days away from our first league game after the window and we currently only have one recognised first-team striker, and that player was signed as a long-term project, who was likely set to be 3rd or 4th choice at that time. We're in the Premiership FFS; this is a ridiculous position to be in. 

Yes, he's been good at moving players on, but he wouldn't have to move players on if he didn't make errors of judgement in signing them in the first place. Yes, he's been stung by injuries to Obika, but he should've known that would happen and not signed him again. 

All told, perhaps some holding his hands up instead of making the usual excuses wouldn't go amiss. That would be the honesty and ownership that I want. Such behaviour draws respect and suggests an individual is capable of learning from their experiences and mistakes. 

[fizoxy]

Tierney's legs are made of wet toilet paper tubes. Must be a name thing. It's a shame because I liked him.

[bobbybingo]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. 

 

Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him?

[texanwellfan]

18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him?

Not a comment either way on your post, just the info requested. Bair is 11th top scorer. There are 4 non old firm players above him and on of those 4 is Biereth on 6 goals versus Bair’s 5 goals. 
 

one is shankland and the other two are Aberdeen players. McGrath (6) and Miovski (10)

[wellfan]

18 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

Bair's previous record again? In the here and now, could you list the non Old Firm players signed this summer who have scored more goals than him?

Bair's goal-scoring record before signing for us was (I think) 8 in 95.

But, if we're content to use Bair as our yardstick for success now, that is a quick race to the bottom. To see how he stacks up this season, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers

However, to address your point with another point, other non-old firm clubs will have signed players this summer who have scored less than Bair, but those clubs will also have more than just him as their sole fit and available striker.  

[steelboy]

Bair's a bit like Danny Johnson in that unless he's scoring he's not really doing anything for you.

He's got no striker's instinct to move for the ball and his touch is horrific. The one in the second half on Saturday where SOD played a nice pass into him and he completely missed the ball sums him up. If the ball is in front of him and he's pointing in the correct direction he's got a bit of threat but playing up top alone is well beyond his capabilities.

[bobbybingo]

4 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Not a comment either way on your post, just the info requested. Bair is 11th top scorer. There are 4 non old firm players above him and on of those 4 is Biereth on 6 goals versus Bair’s 5 goals. 

In the league, I count 3 non Old Firm players above him - Shanland at Hearts, Miovski and McGrath at Aberdeen. Who do you have as the 4th?

The comment I replied to specifically referred to our summer recruitment. The only one of the guys I've listed who was signed during that window is McGrath, so I think we've done ok so far with Bair. Maybe folk expect us to sign better players than Celtic, Rangers, Hearts or Aberdeen. Fair enough. 

If I was criticising Kettlewell there are certainly sticks to beat him with - Bair isn't one of them, unless your argument chooses to ignore the number of goals he's scored this season and focus solely on his lack of them elsewhere in previous years.

[dennyc]

48 minutes ago, wellfan said:

To address both posts, I don’t know how many times I and others have to say this, but here it is again:

We're in this position because he made an arse of the summer window in terms of strikers. He's the manager and it's on him. That's my view and others can have their view, but if some people want to call me a fud then they've lost the debate.

He resigned Obika knowing fine well that we was an injury risk. Poor recruitment.

He signed Wilkinson, who contributed little and is now gone. Poor recruitment  

He signed Shaw, who contributed nothing and is now gone. Poor recruitment. 

He signed Biereth, which is his only good bit of business, but it's risky business to end up in the position of having to rely on loanees, and he's now gone.

He signed Bair, who everyone knew had a poor record in front of goal. Poor recruitment. 

He put Tierney out on loan and released McKinstry, and didn't replace them, effectively meaning we could only play one style as he settled on having no number 10s or wingers. This may have been a budget decision, however. 

I could go on, but there's no point.

The outcome of all of this is that we're 2 days away from our first league game after the window and we currently only have one recognised first-team striker, and that player was signed as a long-term project, who was likely set to be 3rd or 4th choice at that time. We're in the Premiership FFS; this is a ridiculous position to be in. 

Yes, he's been good at moving players on, but he wouldn't have to move players on if he didn't make errors of judgement in signing them in the first place. Yes, he's been stung by injuries to Obika, but he should've known that would happen and not signed him again. 

All told, perhaps some holding his hands up instead of making the usual excuses wouldn't go amiss. That would be the honesty and ownership that I want. Such behaviour draws respect and suggests an individual is capable of learning from their experiences and mistakes. 

Shaw and Wilkinson looked like decent signings and very few, if any, raised questions at the time. Even "those others" you refer to.  They were signed based on playing history and the financial market we operate in. Both have moved on as you say, for different reasons. Shaw was nothing like the youngster that featured for Hibs and Wilkinson was unsettled. But were they worth a try? I think they were.

Bair and Obika I tend to agree should not have been signed, but each has shown glimpses that not all is lost. I repeat, I would not have taken a risk on either.

Biereth is the quality of youngster we just cannot afford to sign on a full contract basis. So, when the opportunity of a Loan placement comes up, are we to decline the offer on the basis we just don't like Loans? For a while Biereth was the Messiah and his loan status was not a factor. Did you raise it as an error back then? Also it is perfectly clear to anyone willing to open their eyes that Arsenal did the dirty on us.  How do you plan for that? In case you haven't noticed, the bulk of deals done in the January window are on a loan basis, even involving Clubs with a lot more financial resources than we have. But ok, we can just ignore that market and sign lesser players on longer contracts. Bair mark 2 perhaps.

Tierney and McKinstrey were a waste of a much needed wage and had no future at Motherwell. Although they were fan favourites each failed to take any starting opportunities they were given, flattering to deceive in substitute appearances. That's the reality of why they left. Several Managers formed that same opinion, not just Kettlewell. That also applies to others that were moved on.

Kettlewell's signings in this window and his set up against Alloa suggest he is aware of the need for better attacking width. Nicholson often played as a winger for Hearts and Elliott is described as a pacy attacking wing back. Montgomery seemed comfortable going forward and Gent certainly benefited from starting in an advanced position. So, for me, that is a manager recognising where improvement is needed.

So, for now, I hope we stick with him. Season end is the time for his future to be assessed. And no doubt his recent signings will be a factor one way or another.

Not in response to your post alone, but it is clear there are fans out there desperate for Kettlewell to fail and so prove them right..........no matter the implications of that failure. Scrutinising every word to find fault but going quiet when things go well or a signing looks promising. Several players appear to be up against the same barrier. Sad.

 

 

[bobbybingo]

12 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Bair's goal-scoring record before signing for us was (I think) 8 in 95.

But, if we're content to use Bair as our yardstick for success now, that is a quick race to the bottom. To see how he stacks up this season, see here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/top-scorers

However, to address your point with another point, other non-old firm clubs will have signed players this summer who have scored less than Bair, but those clubs will also have more than just him as their sole fit and available striker.  

His previous record means nothing to us now, and the fact he is our sole fit and available striker tells us absolutely nothing about him. 

He's a striker who is scoring goals. I thought that's what we're looking for right now?

[wellfan]

4 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

His previous record means nothing to us now, and the fact he is our sole fit and available striker tells us absolutely nothing about him. 

He's a striker who is scoring goals. I thought that's what we're looking for right now?

As I said above, if we’re content to settle for the likes of Bair, we’re screwed. 

[wellfan]

13 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Biereth is the quality of youngster we just cannot afford to sign on a full contract basis. So, when the opportunity of a Loan placement comes up, are we to decline the offer on the basis we just don't like Loans? For a while Biereth was the Messiah and his loan status was not a factor. Did you raise it as an error back then? Also it is perfectly clear to anyone willing to open their eyes that Arsenal did the dirty on us.  How do you plan for that? In case you haven't noticed, the bulk of deals done in the January window are on a loan basis, even involving Clubs with a lot more financial resources than we have. But ok, we can just ignore that market and sign lesser players on longer contracts. Bair mark 2 perhaps.

I've already addressed some of those points here: https://www.steelmenonline.co.uk/forums/topic/18449-202324-ins-outs-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=632655

 

[texanwellfan]

27 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

In the league, I count 3 non Old Firm players above him - Shanland at Hearts, Miovski and McGrath at Aberdeen. Who do you have as the 4th?

The comment I replied to specifically referred to our summer recruitment. The only one of the guys I've listed who was signed during that window is McGrath, so I think we've done ok so far with Bair. Maybe folk expect us to sign better players than Celtic, Rangers, Hearts or Aberdeen. Fair enough. 

If I was criticising Kettlewell there are certainly sticks to beat him with - Bair isn't one of them, unless your argument chooses to ignore the number of goals he's scored this season and focus solely on his lack of them elsewhere in previous years.

4th was Mika