Motherwell v Celtic 11/10/2026

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

Interesting to read the comments by AJ about Vogt regarding training. Also it would appear that Maswanhise has not been behaving himself in his social life going by some recent social media posts. 

What we see is a 90 mins snapshot of 3 weeks of training, players living their lives for good or bad, personal/professional issues for individual players, fitness, injury etc, etc. 

Judging the decisions of the manager on the 90 mins snapshot only is like heading straight into the tip of the iceberg with abandon because you can't see what lies beneath. 

 

Thats absolutely fine.

And if Willy hadnt been hopelessly out of his depth and harming the team, then no one would argue.

But his first half was so bad that it was very clear that it wasnt going to end well.

By not substituting him he merely prolonged the agony and risked damaging the player further due to the reaction from some if the less patient members in our support.

FWIW, I wouldnt be championing Maswanhise right now given the form he has been in regardless of any rumours.

Said on the other hand brings something to the table most weeks. Despite the chaotic nature of his play on the ball, he is quite disciplined tactically and always works hard for the team.

[star sail]

4 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

 

By not substituting him he merely prolonged the agony and risked damaging the player further due to the reaction from some if the less patient members in our support.

 

 

Think of the levels of self sabotage by the Motherwell support in that reaction. You don't need opposition fans if you are going to heap unnecessarily amounts of pressure on your own struggling player.

We don't know the full reason for picking Vogt over other players but if confidence was an issue for the player before it certainly is now.

I know the response to that is that AJ should never have played him in the first place but going by that logic he would never get an opportunity and a potential talent goes to waste.. Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence. The manager has to stick or twist. 

By gambling it allows the fans to stick the boot in. A crazy scenario when you think that the interests of everyone should be aligned. 

'We like to see the development of young talent (but only when they come out the box as the finished article)'

It's one of the reasons I think the word supporter should always be treated with significant poetic license. It is so easy to clap our hands and cheer when all is Rosey in the garden. To boo and ridicule one of your own players lacking in confidence isn't support. As a matter of fact it is the very opposite. 

Of course football fans are a sensitive bunch and do not like being criticised so we blame the player and we blame the manager and walk of into the sunset singing with a sense of smug satisfaction that we have paid our entrance fee and can do as we please with little care for the reputations we destroy.

Stand up and sing, stand up and sing.........!!!

[Kmcalpin]

4 hours ago, star sail said:

Think of the levels of self sabotage by the Motherwell support in that reaction. You don't need opposition fans if you are going to heap unnecessarily amounts of pressure on your own struggling player.

We don't know the full reason for picking Vogt over other players but if confidence was an issue for the player before it certainly is now.

I know the response to that is that AJ should never have played him in the first place but going by that logic he would never get an opportunity and a potential talent goes to waste.. Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence. The manager has to stick or twist. 

By gambling it allows the fans to stick the boot in. A crazy scenario when you think that the interests of everyone should be aligned. 

'We like to see the development of young talent (but only when they come out the box as the finished article)'

It's one of the reasons I think the word supporter should always be treated with significant poetic license. It is so easy to clap our hands and cheer when all is Rosey in the garden. To boo and ridicule one of your own players lacking in confidence isn't support. As a matter of fact it is the very opposite. 

Of course football fans are a sensitive bunch and do not like being criticised so we blame the player and we blame the manager and walk of into the sunset singing with a sense of smug satisfaction that we have paid our entrance fee and can do as we please with little care for the reputations we destroy.

Stand up and sing, stand up and sing.........!!!

I certainly don't condone any of our fans who barracked Vogt when he was substituted, if indeed that happened to any extent. Its certainly counter productive and not a good look. However, there is dubiety about this. We sit near the dugouts and the impression that I got was that many of those involved were directing their ire at AJ and not the player.  I didn't hear any loud shouts aimed at the player, although there was much private discussion, if I may call it that. 

The manager has a fine balancing act in man management to weigh support for a player against responsibility to the team. Its not easy, but AJ got that very badly wrong. The lad is clearly nowhere near ready for first team football in our league let alone playing against the current champions. Why he chose him and what advice he was given by the coaches we don't know.  AJ did him no favours by firstly picking him to start and secondly by not taking him off at half time. The lad's confidence will now be rock bottom. It raises serious questions about AJ's man management skills, as did other personnel decisions before and during the game.  

[wellfan]

The manager’s decisions before, during and after the game very much have the feel of stubbornness to the point of personal failure. That, in turn, impacts on individual players and the team as a whole. There’s a difference between sticking to a philosophy and refusing to adapt when the evidence is staring you in the face. The latter is stupidity, likely borne out of inexperience.

[wellfan]

11 hours ago, star sail said:

He must be seeing something from Vogt in training that is not translating to a performance on match day. What do you do? Ditch him as a lost cause at this early stage? 

There’s a world of difference between writing someone off as a lost cause and taking them off at half-time after a shocking performance. He’s clearly a project player and should be treated as such.

5 hours ago, star sail said:

Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence.

Probably not, but that’s on the manager for starting him in the first place. Regardless, I’d argue that the overall wellbeing of the team on the pitch takes precedence over any one player’s feelings about being hooked after a shite performance.

At the end of the day, we lost to Celtic for a variety of reasons, one of which was shockingly bad player management.

[Kmcalpin]

In terms of responsibilty to individuals, we have discussed Willy Vogt's situation and understandably so. That includes the effect on him personally of hooking him. However, what about the effect on Tom Sparrow, of not hooking Vogt? Sparrow was made to look silly, by having no effective cover in front of him. That said, he still isn't a full back. So, its not as simple as looking at Vogt in isolation. 

[joewarkfanclub]

6 hours ago, star sail said:

Think of the levels of self sabotage by the Motherwell support in that reaction. You don't need opposition fans if you are going to heap unnecessarily amounts of pressure on your own struggling player.

We don't know the full reason for picking Vogt over other players but if confidence was an issue for the player before it certainly is now.

I know the response to that is that AJ should never have played him in the first place but going by that logic he would never get an opportunity and a potential talent goes to waste.. Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence. The manager has to stick or twist. 

By gambling it allows the fans to stick the boot in. A crazy scenario when you think that the interests of everyone should be aligned. 

'We like to see the development of young talent (but only when they come out the box as the finished article)'

It's one of the reasons I think the word supporter should always be treated with significant poetic license. It is so easy to clap our hands and cheer when all is Rosey in the garden. To boo and ridicule one of your own players lacking in confidence isn't support. As a matter of fact it is the very opposite. 

Of course football fans are a sensitive bunch and do not like being criticised so we blame the player and we blame the manager and walk of into the sunset singing with a sense of smug satisfaction that we have paid our entrance fee and can do as we please with little care for the reputations we destroy.

Stand up and sing, stand up and sing.........!!!

I dont condone fans booing individual players at any time. As you say, it is entirely counter productive.

Im also sympathetic to the general theme of your posts.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the subsequent posts of KMcAlpin and Wellfan.

Giving Willy Vogt his first start in weeks against the best team in the league was frought with danger. I could understand giving him 30 minutes at the end if the game was going well. But Alfred effectively threw him in at the deep end and told him to go swim.

[Spiderpig]

52 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

But Alfred effectively threw him in at the deep end and told him to go swim.

Thats the best way to find out if all the coaching, words of wisdom, confidence boosting, tactics etc that AJ and his staff have no doubt given Vogts in recent weeks has been absorbed and learned by the player.

Sadly for me after his lack of any meaningful contribution last Sunday the answer would seem to be no.

Stamatelopoulos was not up to standard but early on he gave glimpses of him potentially being a decent player, we dont even get that with Vogt, hes like a rabbit in the headlights no idea where he should be aimlessly wandering about the pitch.

For me i really dont think hes at the or ever going to make the standard we need at the club.

[star sail]

Ok. When Wellfan, Kmcalpin and joewarkfanclub collectively disagree with my take on this, I have to admit defeat. As I said before the debate is generally a good one and the points you all make are reasonable.

For some perspective regarding the weekend past, we do have to remember that Celtic have a budget that is x100? (is that an exaggeration?) our own and they were galvanised after an OF humiliation.

I think if AJ had any doubts about the mindset of our fanbase regarding the patience for a project, he knows now.

The good vibes of the warm summer European evenings are long gone and any mistakes the manager or his players make from this point onwards will be treated with generic football fans impatientce. 

We are not quite in the must win category yet but it is very quickly trending that way. I think it will turn nasty fairly quickly if we lose this weekend. 

AJ has made it past the Russell Martin October 5 th watermark but that is with a very good first month honeymoon period behind him. I have the fear for him unfortunately. Already there is no room for error. 

There is a slightly depressing air of familiarity about it all. 

[joewarkfanclub]

52 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Thats the best way to find out if all the coaching, words of wisdom, confidence boosting, tactics etc that AJ and his staff have no doubt given Vogts in recent weeks has been absorbed and learned by the player.

I think 20 - 30 minutes as a sub, and if successful putting him in against Kilmarnock away might have been kinder/less precipitous. But aye, its hard to see a way back for him now.

I hope Im wrong. I really want him to make the grade.

[wellfan]

1 minute ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I think 20 - 30 minutes as a sub, and if successful putting him in against Kilmarnock away might have been kinder/less precipitous. But aye, its hard to see a way back for him now.

I hope Im wrong. I really want him to make the grade.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him start again on Saturday, with Sparrow dropped to the bench instead.

"Don't back down, double down"

[joewarkfanclub]

51 minutes ago, star sail said:

Ok. When Wellfan, Kmcalpin and joewarkfanclub collectively disagree with my take on this, I have to admit defeat. As I said before the debate is generally a good one and the points you all make are reasonable.

For some perspective regarding the weekend past, we do have to remember that Celtic have a budget that is x100? (is that an exaggeration?) our own and they were galvanised after an OF humiliation.

I think if AJ had any doubts about the mindset of our fanbase regarding the patience for a project, he knows now.

The good vibes of the warm summer European evenings are long gone and any mistakes the manager or his players make from this point onwards will be treated with generic football fans impatientce. 

We are not quite in the must win category yet but it is very quickly trending that way. I think it will turn nasty fairly quickly if we lose this weekend. 

AJ has made it past the Russell Martin October 5 th watermark but that is with a very good first month honeymoon period behind him. I have the fear for him unfortunately. Already there is no room for error. 

There is a slightly depressing air of familiarity about it all. 

I dont think we are actually miles apart in our viewpoints. I support a lot of what you are saying about the fans, lack of patience or knowledge about what may or may not be going on behind the scenes.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, wellfan said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see him start again on Saturday, with Sparrow dropped to the bench instead.

"Don't back down, double down"

I really hope not. 

That really would be verging on insanity.

We need a result. He needs to play the players that have shown him he can trust.

[wellfan]

18 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I really hope not. 

That really would be verging on insanity.

We need a result. He needs to play the players that have shown him he can trust.

True, but do the players trust him? I'm sure several are pissed off after Saturday. 

[joewarkfanclub]

Just now, wellfan said:

True, but do the players trust him? I'm sure several are pissed off after Saturday. 

Exactly why he needs to get the team selection and tactics right on Saturday.

Trust has to be earned before it is given.

[grizzlyg]

54 minutes ago, wellfan said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see him start again on Saturday, with Sparrow dropped to the bench instead.

"Don't back down, double down"

I am one of AJ biggest defenders but even i would question him if he started Vogt. Personally Sparrow needs rested also