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I agree with this. The point tally is in some ways meaningless at the moment. There was a clear sign of progress under JBA that we are not seeing at the moment. Also we were still in the League Cup. Where I struggle with the comparison is that I think time will prove JBA to be an exceptional manager who will go to the very top of the game. I don't think we will have a manager of his capability any time soon (if ever again).We are comparing the new manager against a very high bar. I think we have to be very careful about doing that. We are not going to replace JBA. On points total, it is interesting to watch the trajectory of Toulouse at this time. I think they are sitting 14th in the French league with a significant amount of draws. It is a very similar situation to the one last season at Motherwell. I think we can be reasonably confident that Toulouse will finish much higher than 14. We cannot have the same confidence in Motherwell's future because we simply are not dealing with the same quality of manager, however that does not mean we are in a terminal situation.

People comparing everything to "Jens was the same this time last year" is a mental comparison - yes we struggled for WINS during that period but you could see what he was trying to do, and weren't getting turned over 4-0 by Aberdeen. I cannot see what Alf is trying to do, we play 3 sideways passes then hoof it up the park. We are slow in transition, offer nothing upfront, all over the place at the back and his ethos of finding positives in every defeat and not making subs until we are out of the game just put him up there with the likes of Critchley at Hearts - as a youth team manager at best. Nobody wants him to fail, we all want him to be a success, gave him the benefit of the doubt against Stenny but since then we have got significantly worse and I haven't seen anything that suggests more time on the training ground is making us better, it's the oppopsite.

On here is definitely more balanced and folk giving their reasons. I just avoid Facebook as would end up getting rattled. We are seeing just how special a manager we had last season. Was always going to be hard for who replaced him. My concerns are we have spent a lot of money and product on pitch not matching that. I am very much in give AJ time but he needs to stop over complicating things and get the line up correct. At same time the players need to look at themselves as a good few are not performing. COYW

Really well put, as ever, JWFC.

I think there is merit in a lot of what Star Sail AND Wellfan are saying. There is no doubt in my mind that our support is no better or worse than other clubs. Football fans in general are fickle and behave in similar tribalistic ways. However, I think we have to differentiate between considered debate (which I think has been the case for the most part on here) and some of the rampant toxicity you get on other social media platforms, where folks just vent their spleen. I do worry about the atmosphere at the ground though, as it hasnt taken long for the positivity and big crowds to drift away. The Helsinki game was only a month ago! I get the whole transition debate and Alfred should 100% be given the time to turn this around and show us what a team in his image is going to look like. But he is going to have to find some improvements quickly. That mind not mean winning loads of gamed in a swashbuckling style. But it has to show improved performances, more structure, some evidence that the players are taking on board the coaching. Thats what allowed Jens to get a pretty easy ride over the first couple of months. The naysayers and more vocal element in our support were kept quiet by performances, not results. Hopefully Alfred can find some of that soon.

People keep banging on about the similar points tally so far, but that misses the point entirely. Under JBA, there was a clear identity from day one. Alfred keeps talking about a transition phase, and that's fair enough. Nobody expects him to replicate what JBA achieved. But a transition has to show signs of taking you somewhere, and we're seeing absolutely none. If anything, we're moving further and further away from what was good about us under JBA, and we've looked increasingly clueless the longer Alfred's had the players on the training pitch. I said he'd rightly be given time, but time is worthless if there's no sign of progress. We're getting worse, the same glaring weaknesses persist, and he seems either incapable of addressing them or too stubborn to change anything. I don't expect another JBA season. I expect a team that looks like it has a clue what it's doing. I expect decent performances even in defeat. I'm struggling to see what anyone thinks we're waiting for. Alfred looks increasingly out of his depth. And this isn't a plea for him to be sacked, nor is it a desire to return to the 'dinosaur' style that some keep referring to, as if this is some sort of modern football versus dinosaur football debate. Calling a spade a spade isn't creating toxicity either. The situation is plain to see for me, and if others can't see it, I think they're allowing the transition argument to overshadow some pretty obvious problems. This is also an entirely different situation from the ones we found ourselves in under Alexander, Hammell, Kettlewell et al. The needle has shifted since then, and I don't think criticism of Alfred should automatically be lumped in with the discontent that surrounded those managers. A defeat to Killie this weekend, coupled with another poor performance and no evidence that Alfred is learning from his mistakes, will only accelerate what is increasingly starting to feel inevitable.

I think its possible for fans to point out things they thought the manager got wrong without necessarily thinking they know better than the manager or could do a better job than him. Alfred clearly has way more coaching experience and knowledge than your average fan. But when he talks about certain things pre-match and you see none of it during the game, and then he comes out post match and says he got the starting line up correct, then eye brows will be raised. If you go down that route, I think you need to add a little flesh to the bones to back up why you think that. Otherwise, fans will quite rightly question your methods/thought process. If the manager talks about intensity, I expect to see intensity. If he talks about movement and rotations, I expect to see movement & rotations. He talked about lack of experience in the side, so I wasnt surprised to see SOD start especially when he talked up the senior pro's contribution in training. Whether we think it worked or not is another matter, but at least I can understand why he did that. Putting Willy in after a 3 week break where he has had time to work with him was a surprise. But given JT's recent form and the fact he has been away on his travels, I could understand it. However, he had another poor 45 minutes and he should have protected the player at half time. Similarly with Hodge. Playing him on the left, you intitially give him the benefit of the doubt as tactically you think he has seen something in Celtic that requires it. However, with the entire midfield being overun in the first 45, you expect to see a change for the second half. These arent highly technical tactical observations. Just very obvious things that may have improved our fate before the game was gone.

What I find slightly depressing about this situation is just how quickly the mood changes. A month ago most Motherwell fans thought we were heading to Ibrox to beat Rangers. In hindsight that was a poor call. As fans, we misjudged the situation on the basis that we had a relatively positive European campaign and Rangers a relatively poor one. The key word is relatively and as fans we judged the situation on an emotional basis rather than a pragmatic basis. In reality Motherwell's performance did not suddenly dive off a cliff that weekend. The expectation was unrealistic based on flimsy evidence. A month later and the same fans who misjudged a situation then are starting to consider a change of manager based on the same flimsy hunches and armchair football philosophy. What is worse is that we are no better as a collective than OF fans. Before that game at Ibrox a month ago, there was a significant voice growing from the Rangers support to sack Derek McIness. A month later and McIness is manager of the month and Rangers fans are dreaming of winning the league. The only thing this really tells us is that those fans calling for McIness to go got it wrong a month back. Celtic are no better. Wanting to sack one of the best managers in Celtics history at the first sign of trouble ( trouble being losing to Rangers twice). It is pathetic to watch from afar when we see it in the OF fans. Lose to Kilmarnock next week and I think we could genuinely be back to Kettlewell levels of toxicity within certain sections of the support. We saw it with Kettlewell, Alexander, Hammell, Robinson, Baraclough and on and on. It is easy to buy into the new way when things are going well, to laugh at all the dinosaurs in Scottish football but let's see the commitment to the new way now that we have entered rough waters.

A passive performance that was deservedly punished. A 2-0 loss to Celtic is, on paper, no disgrace, but had it not been for a combination of poor finishing/fine goalkeeping, it could have been much, much worse. What is clear to see at the moment is this is not the Motherwell of last season. To replicate what JBA achieved was always going to be extremely difficult, yet AJ’s reign began with confidence. Recent results have seriously eroded it. Motherwell are a team who can’t score but are porous defensively – the worst type of combination in football. His team selection yesterday smacked of a manager scratching around for answers. It’s now nearing mid-October, and it would seem he has no idea of what his best team is. Central defensive pairings change regularly, as does the forward line. You could see from fairly early on yesterday that it was not working. AJ waited until half-time, fortunate that it was only 1-0. Changes should have come then, but he remained steadfast. At 1-0 there was always hope. At 2-0, the game was up. Others have covered the performances of individuals. Of more concern to me was the team display. Players not playing in natural positions can be attributed as a reason, but this was not a display of bravery to play from the back, or pressing without the ball. It was the display of a side riddled with doubt and lacking confidence, so much so that from a fairly early stage long balls were being pumped forward to the isolated Palmer Houlden. It was a throwback to the recent dark days of Kettlewell and Alexander. AJ has shown he can replicate JBA’s style, so we need to give him the opportunity to get back to it, but the pressure will come sooner than may be anticipated. The reason? He’s had decent money to spend. So far, the jury is out on many of his investments. Fail to get a result at a struggling Kilmarnock and he is really going to come under scrutiny.

Levitt was quiet yesterday but mind you Faddy had a poor game and Lowry not at his best. Wee Oscar is missed badly

The jury is definitely out on alf but points wise we are similar to last year. There were definitely posters on here saying jba was on a shaky nail, would be good if someone can find them. Will be good also to get Iscar back, haven't seen much from Levitt so far.

I assume the sprints before the match in front of the hunter stand were trying to impress someone, well it impressed me because I've never seen him run so fast.😂

I seen this on Facebook and I am hearing it now. All this pundits thinking it’s so easy chat. I stated pre kick off and flung my hat in that the team was completely wrong. The only person that thought that team could beat Celtic was Johansen. Second of all on page one of the chat, I said why I wouldn’t have started O’Donnell and that’s also firmly on Johansen. I said he should have had managed game minutes. Johansen chose to not do that and flung him against Celtic. People want to see him fail line. No they don’t. We want to see him succeed but we have eyes and half a brain. It’s just the usual condescending reasons that we fans don’t know what we are talking about. Funnily enough I see it the other way round. Time will tell. What I do agree with is that’s it a moot point no way the board are going to do anything until that loss count increases.

Of our last 4 games, 2 against old firm where usually we don't get points. Aberdeen home was brutal from 38 mins onwards and Dundee away not helped by Paulsen abd bad mistakes. It's so obvious we are missing Koutrombis and Priestman. Need them back quickly. AJ needs to work out a formation players are comfortable with and don't put square pegs in round holes As has been said before he is watching these players in training all the time so maybe a reason he went with Vogt, maybe his attitude and effort in training is better than others. Yesterday however its clear he is nowhere a start. Said needs to start next game.

You make some very valid points, but fans can often see with their own eyes what is working and what isn't. Many players look great on the training pitch but can't translate that to matchdays - Derek Adams being a classic case in point. I happen to think that Vogt is talented but hasn't been doing it on the pitch for some reason. The manager has to balance an individual's interests against those of the team as a whole and many think that he got that wrong today. If he had hooked Vogt after 20 minutes, would that have been any worse than taking him off when he was, to boos? The lad himself must have known he was playing poorly. I don't agree with such booing by the way. Personally, I'd have taken him off at half time. That would have balanced the lad's and team's interests. No-one is saying that football management is simple as it isn't. But, punters and pundits are all entitled to have their opinions and to express them, within reason. Its all part and parcel of the game.

Which is probably why football clubs don't just advertise the manager position in the local press. If it was as easy as us fans think, clubs would just pay a punter 40k a year to do the job.

I have a st but didnt go , I dont have any inclination to go and be amongst Celtic fans , its a task hearing it all on TV. Ive seen the banner on FB that was in the block e area too although it wasnt being displayed by the official block e. Very important distinction. That's a fn red neck, its like something celtic would display, saw one comment on FB saying " banner fc" at it again. First time they have a problem, they will be wanting the cops to attend. All these things make it not such a good way to spend a Sunday, thats before we get to the fitba.

What if Vogt and Hodge have shown more at training in the last 3 weeks than Maswanhise? AJ has the advantage over all of us in that regard in that he has seen them in training when we have not. What if Vogt has plenty of talent but is lacking confidence. Do you hook him after 20 mins? The manager has way more information to draw on than we have. He also has more experience. If he didn't, he would be on the fans forum and we could have a go at managing the team. It is nowhere near as simple as we armchair pundits make out.

Think we should give him a wee bit more time like we did with Jens

Imagine what the level of support for the team would be like if some had their way and the entire end of the east stand was booted out? There would only be moans, groans and booing left. That section is virtually the only one that backs the players consistently. There's a reason the players and staff tend to end up there when the season ends and we're celebrating anything. I don't see the players congregating at the O'Donnell, that's for sure!

I think people asking for these changes are looking for round pegs in round holes, the manager starts O’Donnell but at CB when obviously people want him to play RB in place of Sparrow. Tawandas replacement wasn’t the problem today, I thought SPH was acceptable. Whatever the problems have been over the last few games, Wully isn’t the answer. Particularly when Said came on and made a difference.

Even if AJ had picked his best 11, whatever might might be, there is no guarantee we would have achieved a better result. Thats a necessary caveat. However, it would have improved our chances of doing so. There were other factors at play. Personnel wise, swap Knight Lebel for SOD. SOD replaces Sparrow at RB. Introduce Maswhanise and Said for Vogt and Hodge.

More importantly, if we bin him any time soon, how easy will it be to find a replacement of JBA's quality? One thing you notice about clubs that have a quick trigger finger when it comes to managers is that it becomes progressively more difficult to convince high-quality candidates to fill the role. Let's say we lose to Killie and the board send him packing, as I've seen a few on here saying could happen (it obviously won't, but let's play along for now). What does the board say to potential new managers when they rightfully ask, "You brought the last guy in and gave him ten games to get up to speed before binning him. He came to Scotland from Europe, uprooted his life and that of his family, tried to implement a way of playing, and he got zero time to really do that. Why would I risk my reputation on that kind of approach and job?" There's a reason why we are now attracting players like Jardell Kanga, Lukas Fadinger, and Elijah Just instead of Conor Wilkinson, Josh Morris & Rolando Aarons. And it's not because they're coming here with the expectations of playing under a manager who played the game for lower-league English teams, or who set up to be "formidable" and hard to beat. It's because of our entire approach, which includes being known as a club that gives managers the time required to show they can either do the job, or they can't. I can't recall the last manager we sacked who could reasonably have said they didn't get time. Our track record there is good. Alfred Johansson might not be the guy for the job. Or he might be. But ten games in is absolutely too early to make that decision. He'll get until after Christmas for sure, then we'll take a look. For me, I'm looking for us to be playing some decent football and in the discussion for top six around that time. If not, then we'll need to look and see what's going on.

I am reading plenty of posts about what the manager got wrong but I have not read any posts saying what he should have done. People have been asking for Maswanhise to be dropped. He was. People were asking for O Donnell to start because we needed leadership on the park. He did. So what is the magic formula that was going to turn that game around today?

Said for me. He didn't change the game when introduced, but he sure gave it a right good go when so many weren't.