dennyc

Perhaps I am wrong but I thought he just left with no deal agreed between the Clubs. Same as Cadden years ago. Contract expired. That’s how the media reported it at the time anyway. Correct me if you find out differently. So we would only have gotten Training Compensation up front which was quoted as between £250k or £300k depending upon which report you believe. And then we would be due an additional Solidarity Fee from any subsequent cross border transfer up to (I think) age 23. Based on years developed from ages 12 to 21. So we get rewarded for developing him for only 7 years as he left us age 19. The calculation of our ‘windfall’ using my limited arithmetic. Based on £1.4m . 7/9 of 5% of £1.4m. So a miserly £55k. 5% is the amount automatically deducted from the transfer fee for sharing amongst the Clubs that develop a player. Derby might be more money and a route to bigger things in England. But sadly even if he then moved for gazillions to Chelsea, we would be due nothing as that transfer would not be cross border. Better for us if SG tell Derby to bugger off and then sell him to an Italian Club for the £3m they want. (£120k for the good guys). After a year he can then get that huge transfer to Chelsea or Liverpool. We then get rewarded twice. Wishful thinking I know! I hope that all makes sense.

I sit in the POD and he gets abuse from a guy who sits just in front of the Director's Box area. Constant. Thankfully that seat was empty yesterday. Shame he missed SOD's contribution though. In truth it's at away games that I have heard the most abuse. And it is a minority, a noisy minority though. Ross County last game of the seoson as an example. It's not just at Fir Park that he heads straight up the tunnel. Stenhousemuir match he did the same. Wasn't at NDP for the Clyde game as on holiday but comments on SOL match thread about the abuse he got that day. Folk can deny it all they like, but it happens. Why on earth do some fans boo him before he kicks a ball? Maybe says more about them than it does about the player. I just feel it is a shame he misses the on pitch celebrations on days like yesterday. His choice I guess, but a shame if abuse is the reason he heads off so quickly. Maybe he just wants to be first in the shower. Rant over.

Just a shame he feels the need to head to the dressing room as quickly as possible once the final whistle goes. Understandable given the abuse he gets from some arseholes in our support. Guy might be past his best and no longer a first choice, injuries having taken their toll. . Always gives his best...whether good or bad...and happy to settle for whatever role our Manager asks him to play. Yesterday showed he can contribute when given the chance.

I think Celtic are of the opinion we should pay them to take him off our hands. 😄

Agree with much of this but I thought it was also the case that later on, when we tried a few times to switch the play with long balls fired out wide to Longelo, it caused Rangers all sorts of confusion. Rangers had over committed players to press our midfield/defence when suddenly we were in behind them and they were in trouble.. JBA actually applauded one of those passes from SOD. Not so much the one that went into touch. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating long ball tactics or missing out midfield. But mixing it up with the odd long pass sows seeds of doubt in our opponents and makes us less predictable. Then again you have to have centre backs that are capable or confident enough to attempt such passes.

And Hibs got slated by some in our media for holding out for a decent price and laughing off a low Celtic offer. Pretty confident Miller will do the right thing for himself so good luck to him. But at the end of the day it is the fee and add-ons that matter most to MFC. As an aside, I was at ER last night and was very impressed by Midtyjlland. Play a similar style to how we are being asked to play.....with the odd long ball to wide players thrown in. Full backs certainly asked to cover a lot of ground. Lots of possession in midfield and defence. Their players looked comfortable on the ball with no signs of panic when pressed as playing out. Very patient. At times moved the ball very quickly. Guessing that is the way teams play in Denmark. Maybe JBA will unearth some oven ready CBs from his homeland.. Only failing was the lack of goals their domination on the ball produced. But they did score six in their previous League game so maybe Hibs got lucky. Just short of 20k turned up....of which 1000 away fans. If we can find or develop players to play that style then I'm on board. Spoke to a couple of their fans who said it took a good while for them to adapt to that style of play and they had a few horror shows on the way. Hibs actually did well without looking like winning. Certainly far better than they were at the start of last season. Strong midfield and in central defence. Cadden was Cadden. Good pushing forward, not so good defensively. early days but I was impressed by them. Cue Dundee win this weekend.

You could be right on the same country moves. Each country can apply their own thinking as not bound by International criteria as set out. Our lot are all very secretive about how they arrive at a figure and I believe Accies said they were warned not to reveal any details. All they could do was register how unhappy they were. Just shows the nonsense of not adopting the rules that apply cross border. That would be much more open and consistent. No wonder Clubs often work out a deal to avoid a Tribunal up here.

I found a report on training Compensation and the Solidarity Scheme. States that Uefa and individual Associations decided upon the amount it took to train a player on an annual basis and came up with a payment table. Then they took into account the level of each team and adjusted the fee based on that. I did not find anything about wages offered by either club as being a factor in the calculation. Not saying that was not added later but I cannot confirm. I tried to copy the calculation section and post it here but every time I tried it was blacked out. Not sure why. And I could not figure out a way to post it. I searched ' How is training compensation calculated by Uefa' in Google and then clicked on the top result ' E A Sports Law' . If interested, stick with it for a few paragraphs and you'll find the bit I am quoting from. For info, the Yanks were late in joining the scheme and initially placed their Clubs in the lowest possible grading (4).... as a way to minimise payments. Cadden was the first real test of their stance. In time they were forced to elevate the grading of the US teams to ensure fairness..

Again an issue that needs addressed. The Training Compensation that applies when a young player leaves his parent club (eg. Max Johnston to Graz) is based on some magic calculation linked to ages 12 to 21. A set fee per year developed. Like you I don't think that has kept pace with the market. The Solidarity Compensation which relates to moves thereafter (eg. if MJ joined Juventus tomorrow) is % based so will increase with the market. 5% of the full transfer fee is hived off and shared to those that developed a player from age 12 to 21. Pro rata. . It certainly amounts to very little if MJ moves for £3m. Perhaps £125k only. We would be due around 7 years worth of the 5%. So maybe that % needs to be upped to 10 or 20% in line with commonly agreed add ons? Seems reasonable Also the fact that both schemes apply to cross border moves only is a joke. For transfers within the same Country I think UEFA wanted to leave the local Association to deal with it. Maybe because of volumes or maybe to not stand on the home Authoritie's toes. Scotland could just adopt the same schemes if they wanted but that would require common sense. Accies felt they were shortchanged with the outcome of the Ferguson Tribunal.

I agree 100%. He looks uncomfortable playing out with too many passes playing our midfielders into trouble or being intercepted. His punts upfield have been closer to me than our strikers. He also seems to think whatever goalie we play has the ball skills of Leo Messi. He did fine for St J playing as an out and out stopper CB but that limited role does not suit our brave new world. He needs to show he can adapt or I think JBA will look elsewhere. Time is running out for him to prove himself. Saturday would be a good start.

Yes please. And it suggests JBA has replacements in mind. Quite honestly I think we don't have any central defenders ....by trade or makeshift...that merit a first team place. So I'm hoping we see more than one depart. To be replaced by at least two that are comfortable playing out as the Manager expects. Might save me a few 'moments'.

Just to add to the complications and confusion. It really is a minefield. Clubs who are losing a youngster (despite offering a new contract) very often do a deal with the new Club that bypasses the compensation rules that apply to cross border only movement. Like I believe we did with McKinstry to Leeds. Maybe building in a larger up front fee with a lower sell on %. Or the other way round. That may suit both Clubs depending upon their financial situation at the time. For internal transfers the compensation rules usually do not apply. Like with Hastie to Rangers. (Individual Associations can adopt the International rules if they like, but Scotland don’t). So we did a deal with Rangers rather than go to a dodgy tribunal whose decision is final and a one off payment. Sometimes with no add on %. So you can get screwed. I understand we got £350k for Hastie plus decent add on had he moved on for big money. A Tribunal might not have been so generous. We will never know. Best recent example of a tribunal outcome is Lewis Ferguson to Aberdeen. Accies got £250k and a small add on %, the level of which was not disclosed. No appeal allowed despite Accies going public that they felt hard done to. Compare that to our Hastie deal. Aberdeen certainly scored when he moved to Italy. Accies may have still been due further training compensation if Ferguson had then left Italy before a certain age….. but I’m not 100% sure on that. It is debatable and not specifically covered in the rules I read. I think Motherwell have actually done pretty well over the years, often successfully negotiating with the new Club. Bailey Rice a recent example. Certainly for youngsters not fully established in our first team. We were unable to negotiate a better deal for MJ though as Graz were happy to go with the set compensation arrangements. No discussion. The ball was in their court as Max had decided to move on. No bad feeling from me on that one as he did what he thought best for himself. And he had only joined us age 12 and appeared in under 20 games for our first team. So very different from Miller. We also lost out initially on Cadden as the US were not in the International arrangement. And when they signed up under pressure from the ruling bodies, they were regarded as a lower tier country where lower amounts were due. History wise. After the Bosman ruling that players could just leave at Contract end with no compensation due (in line with other occupations) Clubs from several countries approached UEFA and FIFA asking them to set up a scheme that rewarded Clubs for developing youngsters. Until they came up with the current scheme Clubs were due nothing. That was seen as a barrier to youth development. So why bother developing kids? The present arrangement is something that helps. Covers cross border only though which is a flaw in the system imo. Like many countries, Scotland opted to go to a tribunal for internal transfers if Clubs do not agree a deal. At least that recognises the need for some reward for youth development I guess. But it is not perfect. That’s my take on things anyway. Others may know differently. Told you it was a nightmare.😀

My understanding is that, to qualify for compensation, a contract has got to have been offered by the 'losing' club. Otherwise that Club is seen to be just releasing a player at contract end. Like happens to so many younger players. Otherwise every player that is let go under a certain age would entitle clubs to compensation. Basically to qualify for compensation you have to demonstrate that you wanted to keep a player. For that reason a contract offer has to be made before a player's existing contract expires. If you like you can check it all out by doing a search along the lines of ' Training and Solidarity Compensation payments in football'. Two different schemes. Details age requirements, cross border requirements and contract basis amongst lots of other detail . Pages of it though so a glass of wine (white) might help! Happy reading.

For Motherwell to have received compensation .....£350k.....from Sturm Graz, Johnston had to have rejected an offer from Motherwell before his contract expired. Otherwise no compensation due. Thems the rules. So he had a choice and opted to turn down our offer. The only real question is whether Motherwell could have persuaded him to extend earlier, perhaps when he returned from Cove? But lets be honest. He did ok on loan at QOS and Cove but it was only when he featured regularly in our first team that his performances took off. By then any team in Europe with a decent scouting system would be keeping an eye on him given his media coverage in Scotland as a possible young player of the year.. And no doubt quietly sounding out his Agent/Dad. IMHO, the Club could have done little more and I believe he had already made his mind up to go overseas well before his contract expired. If I recall correctly nobody was surprised that he moved to Austria. Rumours were rife well before he left. As WeeYin says, how on earth do you make a any player sign a new contract if they don't want to? And if you convince them to sign by offering daft money/length of contract then you could be stuck with someone who fails to make the grade or regresses. We have been caught out that way before and possibly even now. It's certainly an issue that Clubs with a limited budget have to manage. Also, in comparison to Johnston, Miller spent much more of his early years at Motherwell. Johnstone (I think) only joined us at age 12 and had no previous links to us. So perhaps LM felt a greater loyalty to us, received different advice from his father and so found it easier to extend.

The Forest/Napoli/Bologna transfer part seems genuine and now widely reported that Forest have upped their bid to Bologna for Ndoye. A replacement for Elanga who left for Newcastle.. Miller might be a fabricated add-on but the more the Forest thing pans out the more it lends authenticity to the story. We will find out soon I guess.

So be it. The rumour has spread to Italy though as I read it on an Italian rumours page. Time will tell.

Might not work out of course but the rumour in Italy is that the fee is £5m and that Lewis Ferguson highly recommended LM to Bologna. Talks are ongoing re the transfer of a winger called Ndoye from Bologna to Nottingham Forest for around £35m. The player involved wants to go to England and has agreed terms, but Napoli are also after him although offering less than Forest. Talk is that Bologna are using the two clubs interest to push up the price. Should be resolved soon, maybe even by tomorrow. Great move for LM and Motherwell if it comes off.

Seeded you don't get Celtic Rangers Aberdeen or Hearts/Hibs last 16 most seasons. Play down the value of seeding if you like but it does give you a better route to the QF. The last 16 draw is a totally different animal if you are seeded. And, looking to your example, St Mirren away is better than Celtic etc away. Getting through the group is the main thing so job done. But given the advantages the top league team is given throughout the group stage, being unseeded in the next round is an opportunity missed.

Congrats on the results. All that hard work paid off. 👏

Funny how not being seeded is disregarded when we are unlikely to be seeded. I get the point that any team can get a tough draw, seeded or unseeded. And with so few teams involved that possibility exists. But avoiding the the likes of Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs in the last 16 cannot be underplayed. Give me Ross County away or Falkirk or Ayr at Fir park any time over those options. Less chance of us blowing it against those teams than against any of the teams joining at the knock out stage. But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Tonight could go either way.

Even if we get 3 points I don't think that guarantees us being seeded. Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee Utd plus 3 best group winners are seeded. There are still more than three teams that could end up with 12 points if my arithmetic is correct.....Alloa/Airdrie, Ayr, Thistle, Hearts, Killie and St Johnstone. Also Falkirk can get to 11 points and are well ahead of us on goal difference. So when we win we will just have to wait and see how it all works out. Unseeded and at home to Alloa would work.

I agree. And the more frustrated Stam got the deeper he got. No surprise given the lack of quality coming from out wide or through the middle. Often in space and looking for the ball, but ignored. Wilson is just terrified to make a mistake so plays backwards more often than not. I lost count of the number of times he had acres of space in front of him but chickened out. Confidence seems totally shot. Although willing, Sparrow just cannot be relied upon. Defensively both are weak so not sure why they start. The only cutback that created a worthwhile chance first half was sclaffed wide by Maswanhise. Pity it did not fall to Stam as that might have got him up and running. I'm guessing Maswanhise will delight and frustrate us in equal portions throughout the season. My first game this season and I was looking forward to the bright new world I've been reading about. But, even allowing for the weather and the pitch, I was underwhelmed. Facing a team two divisions below us, who were goalless and thumped in their previous game, and who had only brought in 40% of their matchday squad the day before, I expected more. Not miracles but more. Sure we had lots of the ball but what's the point if you go nowhere with it? Eventually resorting to long distance shots that are easily blocked or saved. And I get that it's early days and Askou is still experimenting with players coming to terms with what he expects of them. I thought many looked hesitant and more often than not took the easy option. With the result that we spent most of the game overplaying in midfield. And we got off the hook when their player made a complete hash of their chance to equalise late on from a throw in that seemed to bamboozle our defence. Positives? It's a better watch than SK delivered. We won and kept a clean sheet with what looked like a second choice back four. Balmer and SOD did ok although under little pressure. Stenny's big striker did make it uncomfortable at times but with little threat. SOD scoring...just. Connolly also coped well with everything he was asked to deal with. Of the new recruits, I thought Fadinger looked busy and keen to get involved, trying to move us forward. We missed him when he went off. The fans backed the team to the end and SOD appeared to have an abuse free match. On to Morton who will provide a much sterner test. Improvement needed if we are to progress from the group. Looking forward to see how we perform against a team that might actually set out to win a match. Imrie will certainly have them fired up for a game they have to win. Cannot see them playing for penalties as far to much of a lottery. Hopefully we get a decent turnout who get right behind the team.

Thanks. Looking at the web site quoting Larbert, 4 hours parking at Asda on Saturday (2pm to 6pm) costs £2

Thanks for this. Appreciated.

Gordon was poor in his latter games for St J and after a brief encouraging start with us he then reverted to little better than the rest. Positional and ball retention, trying to play out hardly inspiring. There has to be a player in there given his earlier St J performances and I think he found playing in a back three especially difficult. I have hopes that in a back four, concentrating on defensive duties, we will see the player we hoped we had signed. But he needs a partnership and I do not think Balmer is that player. So yes we need a CB that the Manager knows and trusts.