star sail

For me 'tick tock' and 'time is running out' have a different tone completely. The next time you are under pressure in your work life or Wellfan is under pressure in his and your job may be under threat and somebody comes along and says 'tick tock' it would be interesting to see how you (or he) would view that comment then. Maybe I am being too sensitive and those of you who call a spade a spade are made of sterner stuff. Generally Motherwell managers get sacked. It is a very difficult job. Motherwell have had 20 managers since the turn of the century. Three of them, McGhee, Brown, Askou moved on after a successful spell. The rest were sacked. When almost 90% of the managerial appointments end in failure then you are going to be more often right than wrong to argue each time that the current manager be sacked. On today's game, it was a very good result against a team that have been in form recently. Again Motherwell matched their opposition and showed that there is very little between the majority of the teams in the league.

We have a young manager who has moved his family to Scotland to commit fully to making a success of the Motherwell managers job. If it had been up to people like yourself he would have lost that job a few weeks ago and his life would have been in a form of turmoil. A comment like tick tock suggesting that his position was a ticking time bomb was in bad taste. If you are going to make the comment at least take ownership for it ( I know another shitty modern day phrase). The phrase shows a lack of any empathy or concern for the managers position. I don't think that is really open to any interpretation. It hasn't worked out for you this last few weeks. You may still get your wish but not quite yet.

Tick tock can in no way be interpreted as a support of the team, the manager or the club. 'Suiting a narrative' is a very modern day phrase that does not mean very much. Tick tock was a comment that was in bad taste, gleefully said or not.

Tick tock is in reference to Wellfan's poor taste post of a few weeks ago when he/she was gleefully suggesting that the manager was on borrowed time. Thankfully so far Wellfan has been proved wrong.

Agreed. I think there are a few posters that are now invested in the manager must go argument that are not giving the team the credit it is due yesterday. It could have been 4 or 5 with the number of chances created. Motherwell were significantly better than St Mirren which will not sit well with the people arguing pre match that we are favourites for relegation. It was not perfect and the performance did not hit the heights of last season but there is plenty to be optimistic about if you care to look for it.

You raise an interesting point here. As fans we like to see players in their natural position but often that can be at the expense of having the best 11 football players on the pitch. I agree that you would wish ultimately to see the above mentioned players all play. The problem is how does it affect the balance of the team. A good problem to have after the injury woes of the last few months. I was a huge fan of Iain Vigurs when he was at Motherwell and on his day he was the best midfielder we had at the time ( in my opinion) but he sometimes did not complement the balance of the midfield on a particular day with Lasley etc in the team.

Thank you. Yes. I remember now. Lowry and Priestman involved for Said goal. Hopefully more to come in that regard.

Really delighted with the result today. I thought it wasn't going to happen as the game went on but as others have said we were the better team l. If JT, Said and Kanga can find their shooting boots we will have little to worry about from a relegation perspective I feel. 4 from 6 was the target and it could so easily be 6 from 6. Dundee Utd will be a very interesting game because it will be a step up in calibre I think but we did turn them over at FP so we should go into the game with renewed optimism. One question for the more tactically astute on the forum,. Can Lowry, Priestman and Fadinger play in the same midfield and have they played together yet this season?

3-0 tomorrow. Maswanhise to kick on from his goal the other night scoring a brace and the defenders showing some dig and determination for the clean sheet. Kanga to score the third. It's the beginning of the renaissance.

Interesting to listen to SPH. He is very positive about the influence AJ has had on his game both from a management perspective and a coaching perspective. This is partly why Alfred was brought in. Worth a listen for anybody currently sitting on the fence.

I am not sure how misaligned you are with the support as a whole. If you look at the regular 'manager out' posters on this forum it amounts to a total of about 10 people. Yes that can be extrapolated into a percentage of the support but I would be surprised if it is the majority. It is a very vocal minority and as such gives a sense that they speak as a authoritative majority. I always find the desire for managers to lose their job to be a little distasteful. It is part of the modern game but it is a very destructive part of the game that will deeply affect the lives of the managers involved. AJ has been in the job for 4 (four!! ) months. The posts to get him out started about a month ago. There arguments always rely on a few regularly voiced misconceptions 1. that we have a right to beat St Johnstone/ Kilmarnock/ St Mirren/ Dundee.... etc, etc and if we don't it's a sacking offense. 2. that other teams are not suffering the same woes as us. As a example, look at the two goals St Johnstone lost last night. Defensively they were poor goals to concede. A Valakari coached team loses these goals and we want him as our next manager, an AJ coached team loses these goals and we want him sacked. 3. the supporters of the other teams in our league are watching a better standard of football than we are. Look on the forums of Aberdeen, Falkirk, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Hibs etc at the moment and see how true that actually is. 4. that we will never win another game again under this current management structure. I have read several times over the last 24 hrs that we have no chance against Dundee United when the reality is that we beat them last time out with the same team and same manager in the dim and distant past of just 6 weeks ago. Actually Valakari himself last night said that he thought the standard of the football on display last night was more enjoyable than most because both teams were trying to play football. As a society we have the attention span of a goldfish. The need for change has become as much a part of the spectacle of the game as the football itself. As one poster on here often observes, the fans will have the last word and this is true but it does not necessarily mean that the fans are right or that the narrative that eventually forces a manager out is based on any kind of rational thought or objective analysis. These voices are powerful because it does tend to make us believe that a catastrophic problem exists when it simply does not. Your inclination to think that what you watched last night was actually ok ( if not what we would ideally like) is probably correct but it is difficult to have the courage of your convictions when you subsequently read the extent of the negativity towards the team the manager and the performance. Nobody is saying that it is perfect at the moment but I think we have to treat with some caution the naysayers preaching that the end is nigh.

Superb I really hope this gives JT and the team the confidence boost they desperately need!!!

I think we need to do some serious soul searching as a support as to what we want the club to represent and what we want the future to look like. As a club we were on a rinse and repeat cycle of managers who offered short term fixes and early purple patches only for the results and performances to quickly slide and for the mood to turn grey around Firpark. I have read the same posters on here very quickly call for the head of just about every manager we have had for the last 25 years. Askou offered a new vision last year and we were all dazzled by what the future could potentially be. Unfortunately though it was somewhat of a mirage because it is simply not realistic to expect that we could repeat last year's achievements with a new manager. I think time will prove Askou to be exceptional. The only chance we had for a repeat of last season was to keep him into this season and that was never really realistic. Where does that leave us? To pull a second rabbit out of the hat was always going to be very unlikely. Askou was probably the managerial find of this century in Scotland. No other club has really managed something equivalent. It is very very hard to do. Even if we did by some miracle find an equivalent he would last a year and be gone. That as a model is unsustainable. What Askou did leave was a blueprint of how the club can move forward therby gaining a sense of sustainability and stability for the future. We have brought in a young manager that buys into that vision, playing a modern brand of football, with a reputation for coaching young players, Are we really going to ditch him ( and potentially the blueprint) after 3 months and the first signs of trouble? I have heard comments about AJ being inexperienced and out of his depth. He managed Rosenberg for 3 seasons, one of which they played in the Champions League. Motherwell is not a step up from that. He has experience. He has managed at a very decent level. Just maybe the young manager has a really tough task on his hands. Just maybe he needs time to get it right. Just maybe if he does get it right we will once and for all leave behind the rinse and repeat short term fixes that has plagued us ( and every other club) on and off for the last 25 years. There is no guarantee that a replacement could do any better. Look at how Hibs are struggling (foreign manager), look at how Kilmarnock are struggling (Scottish manager). Do we really want to give up on this already?

It is nice to hear at least one like minded voice. Agree with what you say. I just hope the building negative momentum does not overwhelm the players and the manager. A result will make a huge difference to this squad.

He has had last year's starting 11 unavailable to him due to transfers, injury, illness. This is effectively a completely new team. 4 key players missing today in Priestman, Koutrombous, Fadinger, Lowry. That is significant. These games are being lost on fine margins and individual errors not capitulations. As I said above, you will have made up your mind and I have my views and we will find the reasoning to fit our desired outcome. My belief is that there are mitigating circumstances if you care to look. Some of the support are past that point already. I think it is early. You ( they don't).

This is a ridiculous argument. You have obviously made up your mind on the manager and will now try to wedge any reason into an argument as to why he must go O'Donnell is a very experienced former International player getting paid a very reasonable wage to be a professional football player. To bring him on for the last 10 in his natural position to provide stability, freshness, respite to tired players is perfectly reasonable and legitimate. You cannot preempt the mistake that follows. Today's teams were very even, separated by Hearts having players that are currently sharper in front of goal. Motherwell were the better team in the second half. People have already made up their minds in both directions and will find the rhetoric to fit their preferred outcome. My view is that it is far too early to sack this manager.

You would have to say that if Lowry, Fadinger, Koutrombous, Priestman are all missing because of injury, that is really bad luck. At no point this season has AJ had the opportunity to field a genuine best 11. At least 4 players have been missing at any particular point in time. This effectively neutralises any advantage we had from Hearts weakened squad. We still have not seen any sign of McGinn. Any reasonable person has to factor this in when looking at the season to date. This is effectively a first start of the season midfield. They are going to have to build a relationship very quickly when the pressure is already on.

When I read these posts I always hear the voice of Eeyore from Disney's Winnie the Pooh'

I don't think we were far from a result yesterday. Individual errors cost us. You are not going to like the answer to this question but I would like to see a rule whereby managers can't be sacked until the end of a full season. I think it would stop much of the short term knee jerk reactions which have become all to common in football and it would also take a great deal of power away from players who think they can chuck it for a few weeks until a new manager comes in an then start playing again. Players have far too much power to influence dressing rooms and I think this would stop if everybody knew that the manager was there for the long haul. In terms of AJ in particularly, I would give him the second round of games at least. I think it will only take one confidence building win to get this team back on track. I think the Aberdeen result has knocked the wind out of our sails and Kilmarnock apart we have played the three form teams in the league in Dundee, Rangers, Celtic in the last 5 games. It will be interesting to see how Hearts respond next weekend to their thumping.

💯

No you could not. None of us could . I think this is where the majority of my arguments stem from . We completely underestimate as fans how difficult it is to be a football manager, particularly with a team like Motherwell where expectations are high and the budget in relative terms is low. Let's just look at one single variable from last season. The players that AJ has had available to him. Away Ward, Welsh, Slattery, Just, Watt, In other words, the top performing players last season..That is 5 players for a start. Injured McGinn, Koutrombous, Priestman, SOD. Mainstays in last year's team That is 9 players so far. Then we have our friend Maswanhise who has hardly kicked a ball since February.. Remember he was not performing well under JBA either towards the end. Then there is Fadinger who has not been allowed to play in the same way as last season because he does not have the players around him to do so. The names mentioned bring you close Motherwell's best starting 11 last season Longelo and Said apart. This is one single factor of many that Alfred has to manage. To say play SOD at right back and play central defenders in central defence and all will be fixed is simplistic in the extreme. The manager is suffering a perfect storm just now. An inflated expectation of where Motherwell should be in the food chain, players that think they are better than they are because of reasonably brief purple patches last season, significant injuries and on and on and on.......... Look at Dundee..The Dundee fans wanted Presley out this time last season. Look where they are now. We have to be capable of looking beyond the very small timescale of a one month window. I hope the Board have a little more patience than the supports.

Ok. When Wellfan, Kmcalpin and joewarkfanclub collectively disagree with my take on this, I have to admit defeat. As I said before the debate is generally a good one and the points you all make are reasonable. For some perspective regarding the weekend past, we do have to remember that Celtic have a budget that is x100? (is that an exaggeration?) our own and they were galvanised after an OF humiliation. I think if AJ had any doubts about the mindset of our fanbase regarding the patience for a project, he knows now. The good vibes of the warm summer European evenings are long gone and any mistakes the manager or his players make from this point onwards will be treated with generic football fans impatientce. We are not quite in the must win category yet but it is very quickly trending that way. I think it will turn nasty fairly quickly if we lose this weekend. AJ has made it past the Russell Martin October 5 th watermark but that is with a very good first month honeymoon period behind him. I have the fear for him unfortunately. Already there is no room for error. There is a slightly depressing air of familiarity about it all.

Think of the levels of self sabotage by the Motherwell support in that reaction. You don't need opposition fans if you are going to heap unnecessarily amounts of pressure on your own struggling player. We don't know the full reason for picking Vogt over other players but if confidence was an issue for the player before it certainly is now. I know the response to that is that AJ should never have played him in the first place but going by that logic he would never get an opportunity and a potential talent goes to waste.. Hooking him at half time would have done nothing for his confidence. The manager has to stick or twist. By gambling it allows the fans to stick the boot in. A crazy scenario when you think that the interests of everyone should be aligned. 'We like to see the development of young talent (but only when they come out the box as the finished article)' It's one of the reasons I think the word supporter should always be treated with significant poetic license. It is so easy to clap our hands and cheer when all is Rosey in the garden. To boo and ridicule one of your own players lacking in confidence isn't support. As a matter of fact it is the very opposite. Of course football fans are a sensitive bunch and do not like being criticised so we blame the player and we blame the manager and walk of into the sunset singing with a sense of smug satisfaction that we have paid our entrance fee and can do as we please with little care for the reputations we destroy. Stand up and sing, stand up and sing.........!!!

💯

I don't think he is saying he did pick the right starting XI, just that it was the right decision based on the information he had at his disposal at the time. How many time do we hear of players ( or entire teams) training well but it does not translate on a Saturday? He must be seeing something from Vogt in training that is not translating to a performance on match day. What do you do? Ditch him as a lost cause at this early stage?