star sail

Nice to see you fighting the good fight. I think this is a really good summary of where we are. We are giving Dundee no credit for their performance. The assumption is that Dundee are shite when in actual fact they have made a very solid start to the season. The reaction to the last three games has been eye opening to say the least. The good will of the last 18 months has been wiped out in 15days. Is that really any display of a commitment to the cause? 15 days ago Rangers fans were calling for Derek McIness to be sacked. Look at the goodwill at Ibrox now. Having saved Celtic's season last term, MON was booed at Parkhead today. A football fans support is very fleeting and transient and based almost purely on emotion. There was a BBC article during the week discussing if Hibs should follow the Motherwell blueprint for manager recruitment. Is that blueprint now redundant because we are on a run of three bad games? Remember JBA lost to Dundee back in April will a not too dissimilar performance. We need some perspective .

Part of the problem has to be our own interpretation of where and what this team is. Remember it is only 14 days ago that as a support we thought we were going to Ibrox to beat Rangers. I suspect that was an overly inflated view as to where the team was, tonight we have an overly pessimistic view of where we now are. 14 days does not turn a good team into a bad one. The warning signs were there v Falkirk and Stenhousemuir in particular, we were just not prepared to accept it at that moment in time because we were still riding on the emotion of a positive Euro campaign. I suspect as well that going down to 10 men against Frieberg muddied the waters as to the thumping that actually was. I suppose the point I am making is that we should not look at today in isolation as to where we actually are. We have had good performances against Utd, Hibs and Helsinki in particular. I am sure that level of performance is still in the team somewhere. The true Motherwell is probably somewhere in the middle and we have have to accept that our league position will settle somewhere in the middle. Not what we were hoping a few short weeks ago but maybe some realism will reset the expectation somewhat. .

Big game for JBA at Toulouse as well. They have not won this season and are sitting second bottom of the league. Even the best managers have their challenges to face.

I would saythe press conference was more realistic than downbeat. I think AJ is realising that the honeymoon period is over and that he is actually operating in a very combative league with managers that may not be at the forefront of footballing advancement but are streetwise and knowledgeable. Robinson got the better of him midweek but then he also got the better of JBA in the league cup semi. I think what the last week has shown is that as a fan group we are exactly the same as every other fan group in the country. It is easy to be a fan of progressive football, developing young players and playing from the back when you are winning football matches. The reaction after the result on Tuesday would suggest that we are not as committed to the project as we thought we were. The special relationship between fans and players was tested just a little midweek and I would not say that the reaction will have been reassuring to AJ. The discussion on Vogt is a perfect example Are we going to give this guy even half a chance before writing him off? We are 6 games into the season. I think for AJ, 'don't believe the hype' is apt. We are often hyped by our own media team as a cuddly wee club with a very progressive and understanding support. We are not. JBA just allowed us to act like that for a year because of his success. The only thing I can predict for today is that it will be all sunshine or all shite by the end of the day. Football fans generally work on a game by game basis.

These are dangerous times to be a football manager. David Gray has just been sacked and MJC and wellfan have bumped the manager thread back to the top of the discussion board. So far this season these are the managers whose fans have been sticking the boot in, many calling for sacking: O'Neil at Celtic (he maybe has a little more goodwill in the bank) McIness at Rangers Robinson at Aberdeen McCann at Kilmarnock Goodwin at Utd Gray at Hibs ( now gone) 6 games in. It has been a long hard season!!!

It is difficult to know where to start with that last night. Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning? How can we place that performance and result in the context of the season to date? Do I fall into the doom merchant or happy clapper category? Was it a freak result or a sign of things to come? Fortunately I can answer all the questions above: I have absolutely no idea!! I don't think last night was entirely surprising. The Rangers game before it was a concern. The difference was that the Rangers game came on the end of a very tight fixture schedule and last nights performance came after a break. I have never really bought the played too many games, played too few argument. It is generally an excuse. Good teams negate these issues more often than not. The only conclusion I can come to is this. We miss Priestman. He was the best player in the team before injury and the lack of continuity in the midfield is because he is not there. We have a very young manager with a youngish squad. Most of the signings are project signings. Some will work, some won't. The model we are working with lends itself to inconsistency. We will not pull a successful rabbit out the hat every time. The big question really is Does the support have the stomach for the experiment? Last year was unique. It was successful in a way that will not be replicated this season or possibly ever again. So what do we want? Win at all costs Robinson style industrial football or a project to develop in the right way with the understanding that it will not always go as planned? I suspect there will be much soul searching within our support trying to answer that question in the coming months.

I don't disagree with much of what you say but yesterday was a disappointment more because of the context of results for both teams in the last month. I think we can all agree that as a club Motherwell has had an exceptional 18 months. From Wimmer to JBA to player recruitment the club has nailed every decision. There is no question that the club has moved forward since Kettlewell's departure. However, a little known Polish team and a little known Czech team have beaten Rangers over two legs in the last month. When we as a club are looking to gauge our own progress against that wider backdrop we should have some expectation that if these teams can do that, we should aspire to that level as well. The harsh reality of yesterday is that we were not able to match that level. We can call it early season bedding in or the gulf in budgets but we could not match what an unfashionable Polish team and unfashionable Czech team were able to achieve. I don't think the rate of progression of the last 18 months is sustainable. The club can't keep pulling rabbits out of hats and for me personally I feel that there may be a glass ceiling that will be very difficult to break through. Days like yesterday tend to bring that harsh reality into sharper focus. The European adventure has been both exhilarating and sobering in equal measures. There is no question that we have taken a step forward but I have the lingering feeling that several leaps are still required for lasting measurable gains to be achieved.

I think you need to read what I am saying rather than simply jumping in with the usual 'I know better' response. Nobody is questioning the progress the team has made in the last 18 months. I said that if you take the time to read it. 'In the grand scheme of things ' means looking at the bigger picture out with the micro view of our own progression, I am not sure that the progress that has been made has significantly moved the dial in a European context. It is not luck that mediocre European sides have beaten Rangers over two legs. They were better teams despite reduced budgets. Remember Kettlewell got us our first win at Ibrox after a very long time with a performance that was better than yesterday's. We did not perform yesterday against a poor Rangers side. Rangers were the better team. That does not make Kettlewell's team better than this team but it is a reference point for a poor performance yesterday. Very average European sides have shown Rangers up over this last month and despite all the progression we have made we were unable to lay a glove on them yesterday. I don't think highlighting that is worthy of ridicule. You do know which team I have been watching over the last 18 months so there is no need for the condescending tone. I am just trying to comment on why people might have felt a sense of disappointment yesterday. It is because of the progression that we are disappointed. The performance was not great yesterday. I think it is ok to try and put that into some kind of bigger context. Anyway thanks for taking the time to chastise me for giving an opinion.

I think the disappointment comes largely from the realisation that in the grand scheme of things nothing has fundamentally changed. Rangers have been abject failures in Europe this season They have had several attempts at qualifying for the group stage in European competition against really average European sides and have fallen short every time. We on the other hand won in two ties and lost to a very good German side. It is natural to think that there may have been a shift in momentum, that our gains of the last year have significantly closed the gap to Rangers in particular. To see a display and result like yesterday that mirrors so many Ibrox performances of the past is a real kick in the teeth and a significant reality check. The harsh reality is that these bang average European sides that we have never heard of are still significantly better than us and the gap in quality is still massive. This is not to criticise the progress our club has made in the last year. It simply highlights the enormity of the task to transform our small club into a European standard team than can consistently perform against clubs with bigger resources than our own. I think yesterday brought us all down to earth with a bit of a thump. I hope it does not completely derail the early season positivity.

It is far too early to judge Vogt. Higdon is the obvious example but I could name two more at least who had very uninspiring debuts butwent on to do well with us. Lukas Jutkiewitz ( excuse spelling) Debuted at Aberdeen under Gannon. He was slow looked unfit, the ball kept bouncing off him. Remember how he turned out? Louis Moult Debut at Inverness under Baraclough and looked completely lost. Bullied off the ball, lacking a physical presence. H just looked out his depth. The other debut striker that day impressed more. Was it Wesley Fletcher ? Remember how the two of them turned out?

The thing that always gets me about this type of result is that a team of semi pros can beat a team of full time pros under any circumstances. Whether it be pre season friendlies, cup games, euro ties, there should be an unassailable gulf in class between the sides yet so often there is not. Our second 11 should be better than Stenhousemuir. Squad rotation should be a viable option. As AJ said himself we are talking about elite sport, elite athletes. To put that into some context, in athletics, would an excellent club runner training 10+ hours a week have a chance of beating full time athlete Josh Kerr in the 1500m? Never in a million years. In football you have 11 full time athletes against 11 (in the case of Stenhousemuir) semi professionals mixing other commitments with their football preparation. The advantage to Motherwell should be multiplied by a factor of 11. It should be a very unfair advantage. The truth is that Stenhousemuir have more chance of beating us that we do of beating Frieburg. The gap between two pro teams is often bigger than the gap between pro and semi pro. I get that every so often freak results happen but that performance today is a concern.

I must admit that I have completely changed my view on AJ's media presence. I thought his first couple of interviews and his introductory speech to the players was a little underwhelming but he is completely owning his media interviews now. A mixture of intelligence, humour, approachability but at the same time clear in his own thoughts and beliefs. In a more subtle way, like JBA he does not suffer fools gladly. Overall his first few months have been hugely impressive under demanding circumstances. It is so refreshing not to have to listen to the ' these European games come too early ' rhetoric of Scottish managers past. Our wee club appears to have batted one out the park once again on managerial appointments. As Well fans it should give us great pride that we have shown that there is an alternative to the traditional Scottish football way. I think that the press/ media are responding favourably too. The BBC write up on Thursday nights game showed real affection for what is happening at Firpark. Happy days.

Difficult tie. Finished 7th in the German top division last season. Seems particularly tough when you consider that Rangers could be playing Larne for Europa League qualification. 3rd place would have been potentially massive last season in helping negotiate these early rounds.

It is only because it is more obvious. The consequences of their mistakes are generally more terminal. We saw a few examples of that last year with goalkeeping mistakes in games against Celtic in particular. It is the challenge that comes with the GK's position on the field. I think people are aware of the added risk associated with goalkeeper mistakes and I don't think the criticism is greater as a result. Reasonable people can see the increased jeopardy. On the highlights there were two instances of him missing crosses. Against better opposition who have the composure to pick a spot ( in European football for example) you would often lose two goals from those situations. We may have been punished on another day, we may not. You certainly can't say we would not have been. I don't think pointing this out equates to goalkeepers getting more criticism than outfield players. It is simply a comment on two important moments in the game. Unfortunately for goalkeepers, mistakes carry a higher risk. It's just a reality of the game . Outfield players get plenty of criticism on here for their mistakes ( but then you know that 😉).

Couple of slightly negative comments looking at the highlights. Firstly, I don't think that is a penalty for Hibs. Saw 50/50's like that all the time in the WC that were waved away ( McGinn included). Boyle played for the penalty and got it. Secondly, Paulsen coming for two crosses and dropping both. I like the idea of him coming for those balls (Dijkstra style) but you have to get them. On another day we would have been punished both times. It will be interesting to see if he perseveres with this. Two small negatives that in the end did not matter. Loving Lowry's contribution for the 2 Nd goal. I am going to stick with the Stephen Hughes analogy with him for now, (ex Rangers bad boy come good) and it could have been a McGhee team Version 1 goal we were watching yesterday. If Lowry has the same impact that SH had in McGhee's free flowing Motherwell team then we have a success on our hands.

Great result and it buys the manager and squad time to settle further. Fantastic to see Said on the score sheet. Hopefully it turns him into a goal machine. I did not see the game. What was the style of play like? Similar to last year or very different?

I am still feeling a little hungover from the end of last season. The new season has come around very quickly and I have a sense that normal service may resume with regard to the OF dominating both on and off the park particularly now that two Scottish media darlings in McIness and O Neil are at the helm of the respective teams. Scottish VAR already seems to have learned absolutely nothing from the end of last season already going against the wider world football directive to only get involved with very clear and obvious errors. It would be nice to see Hearts, Falkirk and particularly ourselves carry on the momentum from last season but squad overhauls in the summer prove how difficult that will be. Aberdeen beating Hearts yesterday gives maybe the first sense that the old school Scottish football establishment are starting to reassert themselves. We were miles ahead of Hibs in the last game of last season and we finished on a genuine high despite maybe some lingering regret that it could have been even better but I get a sense that the reset button has been pressed and the league may fall back into a more predictable pattern. It would be a real shot in the arm for the season ahead of we were to dominate Hibs today like we did in May but I think it will be a much tougher test. I would take a draw right now to maintain a positive start to the season going into a very difficult Euro tie next week.

Had a look just now and that is not what I see. Admittedly the podcast concerning Motherwell and Hibs progressing is there on the second row but the top article regards how many points are needed to win the league and is Celtic, Rangers, Hearts centred. The main sports page has Commonwealth games news (as it should) and then is dominated but OF stories. The gossip page comes next which every day is almost exclusively Rangers and Celtic content. It contains the Shankland bombshell again. The magnitude of that hit me just as hard second time to be fair. The next story is the full blown Shankland exclusive. After that a Celtic story. The article on the Motherwell game is 7 or 8 down and takes a bit of finding. Remember this is on the day the game is being played. Admittedly this is better than nothing but look over days and the sports pages are 80%-90% Old Firm centred. Most of the them are non stories. The Motherwell game is a real story. A game being played today with a Scottish teams best chance of progressing in Europe at this stage. It should be headline news. If we are happy with what we get, great but factually speaking there is not an even spread of non OF stories on the BBC.

Went on the BBC Sport website to get a match preview for tomorrow's European game to be welcomed with the headline news that Lawrence Shankland is to be the new Rangers Captain!!!! Who needs football matches when you have this kind of breaking news gold dust coming out of Ibrox.

I wonder if Lowry could be the next Stephen Hughes. Hughes was older when he arrived at Motherwell I think but there are similarities in other ways between the players. ie Rangers player that had lost his way a little for a variety of reasons but plenty of ability. Hughes was my favourite player in Mark McGhee's first free flowing spell at Motherwell. The Quarter back analogy applied really well to him. Everything passed through him and he just kept things ticking along in that team. With the exception of last season that was the best footballing side I remember in my time watching Motherwell and SH played a big part in that.

Fadinger. Class act. He and Priestman were head shoulders above the rest.

I was unsure what to expect tonight but in the end I thought there was an obvious difference in ability between the teams. That's not to say they did not give us some nervy moments. I thought Fadinger was a class apart tonight. Preistman was excellent and will provide must needed continuity from last season. Said was characteristically frustrating. His end product is awful at times.. I had the fear about Vogt given the slating he got last week but looks like there is a player there after all. I think 3-0 would have made the perfect night but as it is the tie is still very much alive. Hibs showed what can happen so altogether a very satisfying evening.

I can relate in some way to what you say. It is not a personal embarrassment for us as supporters or individuals because we have no input into the final outcome but I can understand why more generally the result could be seen as an embarrassment. Hearts 4-0 defeat last night is embarrassing for Scottish football generally. Hearts were a dodgy penalty decision away from being champions of Scotland last term. Scotland's display in the WC was embarrassing for us collectively as a nation. Motherwell have lost to part time European teams in the past. I think for the club and for the full time players involved in these games, it is embarrassing. Motherwell were a breath of fresh air last year and I would love to think that JBA and the team showed that there is another way and that they can compete in European football. It would be a real shame if we were to fall at the first hurdle. Having said that, HB are a full time outfit (I think). It will be a very tough game tomorrow.

The independent report into the OF pitch invasion is pretty damning for the SFA. It basically says that they are not using their powers consistently and I think there is an implication that they are far too lenient on the Old Firm in particular. In this particular situation, the two tier policing of Motherwell and Derek McIness could not be more blatant. McInnes comments were said in anger on live television in the immediate aftermath of a highly volatile ending to the match at FP. His comments were heard by millions. They were inflammatory and clearly called into question the integrity of the officials. Watt posts on social media to a considerably smaller audience, a comment that may question the competence of the decision but not the integrity of it and his punishment is worse. You cannot get a more direct and obvious comparison. The SFA have had time to consider this response and will know themselves the discrepancies in this decision making so you have to come to the conclusion that they simply don't care.

After Stjarnan and Sligo in particular, I will never take us to be strong favourites in a Euro tie ever again. I think because they are match fit and because we have a fairly makeshift starting 11 at the moment this is a 50/50 game.