star sail

Interesting to read the comments by AJ about Vogt regarding training. Also it would appear that Maswanhise has not been behaving himself in his social life going by some recent social media posts. What we see is a 90 mins snapshot of 3 weeks of training, players living their lives for good or bad, personal/professional issues for individual players, fitness, injury etc, etc. Judging the decisions of the manager on the 90 mins snapshot only is like heading straight into the tip of the iceberg with abandon because you can't see what lies beneath.

I am as much for conjecture as the next guy. That's 95% of what football forums are all about. Tell me this thought, if ( and it is an if) we lose at the weekend to go 5 defeats in a row with a lacklustre performance will you know for a fact that it's not because of disquiet in the dressing room? This has all the hallmarks of a David/ Wellfan Rd 2. I better go put the kettle on just incase it turns into an all nighter! Utter nonsense. How dare thee!!

If you have a team that was playing well a month ago and the performance drops off a cliff then players that are not motivated to play must be high up the list of possibilities. There were a few players that had there eye on a move in the summer and it did not work out . You don't need full scale mutiny for there to be disquiet. A lack of motivation or players that are simply not enjoying playing at the moment would fall into that category. Even just players that have lost confidence will lead to an unhappy dressing room. It is not by any means a certainty that this would be the case but to say utter nonsense is a bit extreme. There would have to be some reason for a performance that lacks energy, commitment purpose and in modern football an unhappy dressing room is always a possibility. Utter nonsense indeed. Huh!!!

I think there are two possibilities this weekend. If the team is pulling together and behind the manager I think we will win the game. I think we will have more to offer than Kilmarnock. If there is some disquiet in the camp I think it will be fairly obvious in the performance and it could well be the beginning of the end for AJ. A defeat with a poor performance would be difficult to recover from. Actually, I have thought of a third option. It could be a draw!!! I like to pin my colours to the mast!!!

First off, that post from David is the longest thing I have ever read!!! It was however a good read and made some really good points. Better than some of the analysis you read from the Scottish media pros. I did not read the debate above as policing or particularly confrontational. It made for good reading from two posters who are clearly articulate and give some thought to the game. My only gripe Wellfan is that the conclusion generally comes round all to quickly to the manager being on an inevitable path to the exit door. That apart I think most of us empathise with what you say and share your frustration about the team. You might be right about AJ. I don't think there is one of us that is not concerned by the current direction of travel. We have to all hope however that you have got it wrong. Anyway the debate is a good one on both sides and not just argument for the sake of it.

I agree with this. The point tally is in some ways meaningless at the moment. There was a clear sign of progress under JBA that we are not seeing at the moment. Also we were still in the League Cup. Where I struggle with the comparison is that I think time will prove JBA to be an exceptional manager who will go to the very top of the game. I don't think we will have a manager of his capability any time soon (if ever again).We are comparing the new manager against a very high bar. I think we have to be very careful about doing that. We are not going to replace JBA. On points total, it is interesting to watch the trajectory of Toulouse at this time. I think they are sitting 14th in the French league with a significant amount of draws. It is a very similar situation to the one last season at Motherwell. I think we can be reasonably confident that Toulouse will finish much higher than 14. We cannot have the same confidence in Motherwell's future because we simply are not dealing with the same quality of manager, however that does not mean we are in a terminal situation.

What I find slightly depressing about this situation is just how quickly the mood changes. A month ago most Motherwell fans thought we were heading to Ibrox to beat Rangers. In hindsight that was a poor call. As fans, we misjudged the situation on the basis that we had a relatively positive European campaign and Rangers a relatively poor one. The key word is relatively and as fans we judged the situation on an emotional basis rather than a pragmatic basis. In reality Motherwell's performance did not suddenly dive off a cliff that weekend. The expectation was unrealistic based on flimsy evidence. A month later and the same fans who misjudged a situation then are starting to consider a change of manager based on the same flimsy hunches and armchair football philosophy. What is worse is that we are no better as a collective than OF fans. Before that game at Ibrox a month ago, there was a significant voice growing from the Rangers support to sack Derek McIness. A month later and McIness is manager of the month and Rangers fans are dreaming of winning the league. The only thing this really tells us is that those fans calling for McIness to go got it wrong a month back. Celtic are no better. Wanting to sack one of the best managers in Celtics history at the first sign of trouble ( trouble being losing to Rangers twice). It is pathetic to watch from afar when we see it in the OF fans. Lose to Kilmarnock next week and I think we could genuinely be back to Kettlewell levels of toxicity within certain sections of the support. We saw it with Kettlewell, Alexander, Hammell, Robinson, Baraclough and on and on. It is easy to buy into the new way when things are going well, to laugh at all the dinosaurs in Scottish football but let's see the commitment to the new way now that we have entered rough waters.

What if Vogt and Hodge have shown more at training in the last 3 weeks than Maswanhise? AJ has the advantage over all of us in that regard in that he has seen them in training when we have not. What if Vogt has plenty of talent but is lacking confidence. Do you hook him after 20 mins? The manager has way more information to draw on than we have. He also has more experience. If he didn't, he would be on the fans forum and we could have a go at managing the team. It is nowhere near as simple as we armchair pundits make out.

I am reading plenty of posts about what the manager got wrong but I have not read any posts saying what he should have done. People have been asking for Maswanhise to be dropped. He was. People were asking for O Donnell to start because we needed leadership on the park. He did. So what is the magic formula that was going to turn that game around today?

Agreed but I don't think that was the point that was being made.

So you are saying they have jacked it after 3 poor results, one of which was at Ibrox?

This is a good point. Falkirk are having a very different season to the one they had last year yet the manager is the same. Maybe there are other factors at play? If we were to rely on the knee jerk reactions of football fans the following managers would already have been sacked this season. Derek McIness Stevie Robinson Martin O Neil Jim Goodwin David Gray ( now been sacked) Neil McCann The St Mirren manager is coming under increasing pressure, McGlynn too. AJ also. We could be talking about 3/4 of the league managers being gone already if the fans had their way. It is madness .

I did not see the game today so I don't know just how bad it was but there are a few things that would make me think that there is somewhat of an overreaction here: 1. MJC and Wellfan are cheerleading the Manager out rhetoric which they have done with some glee with pretty much every single manager we have had. 2. Two of this 4 game Armageddon run has involved the Old Firm. Rangers are on a 6 game unbeaten run and Celtic were always going to react after their OF humbling. I still believe Celtic will win the league if MON has his eye back on the ball. 3. Much as we hate to admit it the Dundee defeat was against a good side that are clearly in form just now. There has to be some perspective that we have no right to beat these teams just because JBA was our manager last year. 4. The Aberdeen result was a bit of a freak result. 4 shots, 4 goals. There is no doubt however that this particular game did rock our confidence somewhat. I see MJC calling for Steve Clarke. When are we going to realise that the old Scottish ways of playing football died in the 1980's. We are miles behind the rest of Europe both at club level and internationally. The WC was a complete failure. Motherwell have at least tried to break the mould and did so spectacularly last term with JBA. I applaud what the club has tried to do this year. It may still work but if it doesn't we can at least see the rationale behind the decision making. Our situation reminds me somewhat of Ian Cathro at Hearts. That experiment did not work, not because Cathro was a poor manager, as he has since proved but because the environment was not conducive to him being successful in Scottish football. I hope at least, that AJ is at least provided the opportunity to show what he can do despite the default position of a minority of the support.

Nice to see you fighting the good fight. I think this is a really good summary of where we are. We are giving Dundee no credit for their performance. The assumption is that Dundee are shite when in actual fact they have made a very solid start to the season. The reaction to the last three games has been eye opening to say the least. The good will of the last 18 months has been wiped out in 15days. Is that really any display of a commitment to the cause? 15 days ago Rangers fans were calling for Derek McIness to be sacked. Look at the goodwill at Ibrox now. Having saved Celtic's season last term, MON was booed at Parkhead today. A football fans support is very fleeting and transient and based almost purely on emotion. There was a BBC article during the week discussing if Hibs should follow the Motherwell blueprint for manager recruitment. Is that blueprint now redundant because we are on a run of three bad games? Remember JBA lost to Dundee back in April will a not too dissimilar performance. We need some perspective .

Part of the problem has to be our own interpretation of where and what this team is. Remember it is only 14 days ago that as a support we thought we were going to Ibrox to beat Rangers. I suspect that was an overly inflated view as to where the team was, tonight we have an overly pessimistic view of where we now are. 14 days does not turn a good team into a bad one. The warning signs were there v Falkirk and Stenhousemuir in particular, we were just not prepared to accept it at that moment in time because we were still riding on the emotion of a positive Euro campaign. I suspect as well that going down to 10 men against Frieberg muddied the waters as to the thumping that actually was. I suppose the point I am making is that we should not look at today in isolation as to where we actually are. We have had good performances against Utd, Hibs and Helsinki in particular. I am sure that level of performance is still in the team somewhere. The true Motherwell is probably somewhere in the middle and we have have to accept that our league position will settle somewhere in the middle. Not what we were hoping a few short weeks ago but maybe some realism will reset the expectation somewhat. .

Big game for JBA at Toulouse as well. They have not won this season and are sitting second bottom of the league. Even the best managers have their challenges to face.

I would saythe press conference was more realistic than downbeat. I think AJ is realising that the honeymoon period is over and that he is actually operating in a very combative league with managers that may not be at the forefront of footballing advancement but are streetwise and knowledgeable. Robinson got the better of him midweek but then he also got the better of JBA in the league cup semi. I think what the last week has shown is that as a fan group we are exactly the same as every other fan group in the country. It is easy to be a fan of progressive football, developing young players and playing from the back when you are winning football matches. The reaction after the result on Tuesday would suggest that we are not as committed to the project as we thought we were. The special relationship between fans and players was tested just a little midweek and I would not say that the reaction will have been reassuring to AJ. The discussion on Vogt is a perfect example Are we going to give this guy even half a chance before writing him off? We are 6 games into the season. I think for AJ, 'don't believe the hype' is apt. We are often hyped by our own media team as a cuddly wee club with a very progressive and understanding support. We are not. JBA just allowed us to act like that for a year because of his success. The only thing I can predict for today is that it will be all sunshine or all shite by the end of the day. Football fans generally work on a game by game basis.

These are dangerous times to be a football manager. David Gray has just been sacked and MJC and wellfan have bumped the manager thread back to the top of the discussion board. So far this season these are the managers whose fans have been sticking the boot in, many calling for sacking: O'Neil at Celtic (he maybe has a little more goodwill in the bank) McIness at Rangers Robinson at Aberdeen McCann at Kilmarnock Goodwin at Utd Gray at Hibs ( now gone) 6 games in. It has been a long hard season!!!

It is difficult to know where to start with that last night. Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning? How can we place that performance and result in the context of the season to date? Do I fall into the doom merchant or happy clapper category? Was it a freak result or a sign of things to come? Fortunately I can answer all the questions above: I have absolutely no idea!! I don't think last night was entirely surprising. The Rangers game before it was a concern. The difference was that the Rangers game came on the end of a very tight fixture schedule and last nights performance came after a break. I have never really bought the played too many games, played too few argument. It is generally an excuse. Good teams negate these issues more often than not. The only conclusion I can come to is this. We miss Priestman. He was the best player in the team before injury and the lack of continuity in the midfield is because he is not there. We have a very young manager with a youngish squad. Most of the signings are project signings. Some will work, some won't. The model we are working with lends itself to inconsistency. We will not pull a successful rabbit out the hat every time. The big question really is Does the support have the stomach for the experiment? Last year was unique. It was successful in a way that will not be replicated this season or possibly ever again. So what do we want? Win at all costs Robinson style industrial football or a project to develop in the right way with the understanding that it will not always go as planned? I suspect there will be much soul searching within our support trying to answer that question in the coming months.

I don't disagree with much of what you say but yesterday was a disappointment more because of the context of results for both teams in the last month. I think we can all agree that as a club Motherwell has had an exceptional 18 months. From Wimmer to JBA to player recruitment the club has nailed every decision. There is no question that the club has moved forward since Kettlewell's departure. However, a little known Polish team and a little known Czech team have beaten Rangers over two legs in the last month. When we as a club are looking to gauge our own progress against that wider backdrop we should have some expectation that if these teams can do that, we should aspire to that level as well. The harsh reality of yesterday is that we were not able to match that level. We can call it early season bedding in or the gulf in budgets but we could not match what an unfashionable Polish team and unfashionable Czech team were able to achieve. I don't think the rate of progression of the last 18 months is sustainable. The club can't keep pulling rabbits out of hats and for me personally I feel that there may be a glass ceiling that will be very difficult to break through. Days like yesterday tend to bring that harsh reality into sharper focus. The European adventure has been both exhilarating and sobering in equal measures. There is no question that we have taken a step forward but I have the lingering feeling that several leaps are still required for lasting measurable gains to be achieved.

I think you need to read what I am saying rather than simply jumping in with the usual 'I know better' response. Nobody is questioning the progress the team has made in the last 18 months. I said that if you take the time to read it. 'In the grand scheme of things ' means looking at the bigger picture out with the micro view of our own progression, I am not sure that the progress that has been made has significantly moved the dial in a European context. It is not luck that mediocre European sides have beaten Rangers over two legs. They were better teams despite reduced budgets. Remember Kettlewell got us our first win at Ibrox after a very long time with a performance that was better than yesterday's. We did not perform yesterday against a poor Rangers side. Rangers were the better team. That does not make Kettlewell's team better than this team but it is a reference point for a poor performance yesterday. Very average European sides have shown Rangers up over this last month and despite all the progression we have made we were unable to lay a glove on them yesterday. I don't think highlighting that is worthy of ridicule. You do know which team I have been watching over the last 18 months so there is no need for the condescending tone. I am just trying to comment on why people might have felt a sense of disappointment yesterday. It is because of the progression that we are disappointed. The performance was not great yesterday. I think it is ok to try and put that into some kind of bigger context. Anyway thanks for taking the time to chastise me for giving an opinion.

I think the disappointment comes largely from the realisation that in the grand scheme of things nothing has fundamentally changed. Rangers have been abject failures in Europe this season They have had several attempts at qualifying for the group stage in European competition against really average European sides and have fallen short every time. We on the other hand won in two ties and lost to a very good German side. It is natural to think that there may have been a shift in momentum, that our gains of the last year have significantly closed the gap to Rangers in particular. To see a display and result like yesterday that mirrors so many Ibrox performances of the past is a real kick in the teeth and a significant reality check. The harsh reality is that these bang average European sides that we have never heard of are still significantly better than us and the gap in quality is still massive. This is not to criticise the progress our club has made in the last year. It simply highlights the enormity of the task to transform our small club into a European standard team than can consistently perform against clubs with bigger resources than our own. I think yesterday brought us all down to earth with a bit of a thump. I hope it does not completely derail the early season positivity.

It is far too early to judge Vogt. Higdon is the obvious example but I could name two more at least who had very uninspiring debuts butwent on to do well with us. Lukas Jutkiewitz ( excuse spelling) Debuted at Aberdeen under Gannon. He was slow looked unfit, the ball kept bouncing off him. Remember how he turned out? Louis Moult Debut at Inverness under Baraclough and looked completely lost. Bullied off the ball, lacking a physical presence. H just looked out his depth. The other debut striker that day impressed more. Was it Wesley Fletcher ? Remember how the two of them turned out?

The thing that always gets me about this type of result is that a team of semi pros can beat a team of full time pros under any circumstances. Whether it be pre season friendlies, cup games, euro ties, there should be an unassailable gulf in class between the sides yet so often there is not. Our second 11 should be better than Stenhousemuir. Squad rotation should be a viable option. As AJ said himself we are talking about elite sport, elite athletes. To put that into some context, in athletics, would an excellent club runner training 10+ hours a week have a chance of beating full time athlete Josh Kerr in the 1500m? Never in a million years. In football you have 11 full time athletes against 11 (in the case of Stenhousemuir) semi professionals mixing other commitments with their football preparation. The advantage to Motherwell should be multiplied by a factor of 11. It should be a very unfair advantage. The truth is that Stenhousemuir have more chance of beating us that we do of beating Frieburg. The gap between two pro teams is often bigger than the gap between pro and semi pro. I get that every so often freak results happen but that performance today is a concern.

I must admit that I have completely changed my view on AJ's media presence. I thought his first couple of interviews and his introductory speech to the players was a little underwhelming but he is completely owning his media interviews now. A mixture of intelligence, humour, approachability but at the same time clear in his own thoughts and beliefs. In a more subtle way, like JBA he does not suffer fools gladly. Overall his first few months have been hugely impressive under demanding circumstances. It is so refreshing not to have to listen to the ' these European games come too early ' rhetoric of Scottish managers past. Our wee club appears to have batted one out the park once again on managerial appointments. As Well fans it should give us great pride that we have shown that there is an alternative to the traditional Scottish football way. I think that the press/ media are responding favourably too. The BBC write up on Thursday nights game showed real affection for what is happening at Firpark. Happy days.