Guest Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'd agree with all of that ^^^. The first half was frustrating, and we had a couple of absolute passengers in the team. Second half though, I thought we were terrific. Got ourselves a foothold in the game, and got our goal. In that respect, I thought McGhee got it absolutely spot on. His subs as well, bringing McDonald (if he hadn't been training, for whatever reason) after an hour really pulled us forward, and I thought McMillan was the perfect replacement for Cadden as well. Their first was probably preventable, but the second was just suicidal stuff, something that no manager in the world can legislate for, so the castigation of McGhee seems bizarre to me. We were well worth a replay, really. In addition, looking at Cadden, I can see why we're looking at O'Halloran. Cadden is never fit, and I hoped the time out would give him time to recover, but he's unable to open up his pace just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 From what I've seen and heard about Rangers this season McGhee played it right. They have loads of possession for possessions sake and do nothing with it. Quite a few teams have gone to Ibrox and got a point or been unlucky not to take something by sitting in and letting them have the ball in the centre circle and taking their chance when it comes. I don't think we have the players to press them for 90 minutes, as was shown in the Celtic game where we tired badly. So to sit in, keep it tight then throw on skippy and have a go later on was a decent plan that nearly came off. Not sure what to make of McGhee? On one hand, it's reassuring he seemed to genuinely care, and realised the importance of the cup, on the other, does it just show up his "all about me" attitude? (Another positive, not mentioning some of the roastings he took at Aberdeen has wound that mob up! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 A few reasonable and well argued defences of Mark McGhee's selection and tactics this morning. However the bottom line is it didn't work. I would hope a manager, after a defeat and maybe even after a win, would always admit he could done things better. As O'Neil wrote maybe his options were a bit limited and thats as may be. However Mark McGhee must know as most of us do, that when we sit back and try to defend we end up losing goals. That was always going to be the case on Saturday no matter how poor Rangers are (they are second in the league). He did have options - Ross MacLean could have selected; Ryan Bowman could have been used to partner Moult; Ainsworth could have been deployed on the left or right; Allan Campbell could have been used at some point to shore up a tiring and ineffective midfield. To me if a player isn't fit (apart from lack of stamina) then he shouldn't be on the bench. Now I'm not saying all or any of these would have worked, but they were options. If I was one of our players turning up for training yesterday, I might expect a bollocking or gentle ticking off (depending on who I was) but I would also expect my boss to say that he could have done things better and will work on it for Saturday coming. I just hope our players haven't heard Mark McGhee's interview - that would certainly demotivate some of them and wind up others in the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Looking at the final score, then it's a reasonable shout to say the tactics didn't work. However, let's look at why it didn't work. The simple answer is that players didn't carry out the instructions. Can you legislate for every possibility? The tactics of "keep it tight, nick one on the break" are not new, not innovative, not some wacky McGhee mental tactic. It's tried and tested and it's been used for years. The goals we lost were due to individual errors. Could McGhee have done something about a tiring McHugh? Absolutely. Could an alternative have been brought on for Cadden? Possibly, but when you're 1-0 up with 10 minutes to go away from home to a better team, the instinctive reaction is to defend. Can you legislate for McManus playing a blind 5-yard pass into the centre of the park in the 90th minute? I don't think you can. McManus spends his life launching the ball up the park. I'm pretty sure he fires a 40-yard diagonal up the street on his way to the shop for the papers every morning. A moment of madness, from one of our most experienced players, has cost us a replay which I feel was the least we deserved. As I've said elsewhere, I am critical of his post-match interviews. Digging out the players I have no problem with. However, I believe a man with McGhee's managerial experience should have known better to let his emotions get the better of him so soon after the final whistle. It doesn't help anyone going forward, and puts unnecessary pressure going into this week's game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'd like to think that every one of those players is absolutely gutted at the result on Saturday. Hopefully every one of them recognised/realised that Rangers were not actually that good. Hopefully every one of them is going to come flying out the traps on Saturday determined to really stick it to them...... Hopefully McGhee send the team out to spank them, rather than sit back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellowell Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Hopefully your right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinjy Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I don't understand those criticising McGhee's post match interview. If he had come out and spun a lot of positives then the critics on here would be slamming him for that. I thought it shows how much he cares about winning. Ok he may want to win for his own super ego but fans need to realise that players and coaches hurt as much and probably more than the average fan. I didn't have a particularly pleasant Saturday evening thinking about the game but I bet I felt better than McManus who would be well aware he had let himself and his mates down and would be going over the mistake he made in his head a thousand times. Lets hope there is a new determination on Saturday to put it right and get three points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukemfc1 Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Finally calmed down after the trauma of Saturday. First of all on reflection I thought we brought a good and positive crowd who got behind the team so hats off to everyone that went. After the game I thought i was probably the most annoyed I've been for some time watching Motherwell but then I thought back to my most recent trip to Ibrox and the Celtic game at FP. These games were exactly the same in the way that we capitulated. In the first half I thought we were very average and really lucky Rangers were so bad up front. IMO we set our stall out far too defensively and struggled to make our way up the pitch. In the second half I thought we done much better and actually played some decent stuff at times. Our goal was brillantly worked and I foolishly thought after this we could have pressed on to get another. Then came the total capitulation.. For some reason we continued to sit in and stand up off Rangers in the same way we did at Ibrox earlier in the year and against Celtic in the 4-3 game. We sat in and got pushed back further and further. I appreciate McGhee brought McDonald on but at this point we also needed to bring on Ainsworth or another winger who could provide a bit of respite and more importantly an outball for the remaining 15 minutes. This has been a consistent theme when we have been in similar situations all season. The first goal to me was a culmination of the above but the second was totally unacceptable. McHugh's pass to McManus wasn't the greatest but as we all agree McManus failed to deal with it in the way that he should (booting the ball up the park) An experienced defender like him should know so much better. This isn't the first time McManus has made a total arse of things and I don't think we should pretend this is a one off. Other than individual error my overiding feelings are 1. the manager is employing the wrong tactics in these situations 2. the players are mentally weak and don't have the mentality to cope at this level of match 3. we need both a winger and a decent defender. The whole situation is a bit tedious now, this has happened multiple times this season but we continue to set out the same tactics. As I said I think we have a bigger issue with mentality in our side in that we either can't live up to big games or perhaps we don't have enough belief to see things out. Ultimately the manager needs to take blame for both of these things but I hold the players to account for the lack of seeing things through and the individual mistakes made. To be honest the reaction from McGhee was more acceptable to me as atleast he showed how much it meant rather than him trotting out with cliches like he usually does. One main point; can we please not pretend this sort of display is 1. acceptable or 2. uncommon. This exact same situation has played out several times now and we have learned nothing. By no means am I saying we should not be more defensive away from home in certain circumstances but when we get on top don't sit so deep and most importantly stand off the opposition so much. We need to do this in moderation and when we can take control of the game do it rather than sittiing in and inviting pressure. These tactics are not working for us. Our defence is not strong enough to maintain this for 90 minutes. We were not 'unlucky' on Saturday, we were masters of our own downfall 100%. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 We were not 'unlucky' on Saturday, we were masters of our own downfall 100%. Yep, agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Finally calmed down after the trauma of Saturday. First of all on reflection I thought we brought a good and positive crowd who got behind the team so hats off to everyone that went. After the game I thought i was probably the most annoyed I've been for some time watching Motherwell but then I thought back to my most recent trip to Ibrox and the Celtic game at FP. These games were exactly the same in the way that we capitulated. In the first half I thought we were very average and really lucky Rangers were so bad up front. IMO we set our stall out far too defensively and struggled to make our way up the pitch. In the second half I thought we done much better and actually played some decent stuff at times. Our goal was brillantly worked and I foolishly thought after this we could have pressed on to get another. Then came the total capitulation.. For some reason we continued to sit in and stand up off Rangers in the same way we did at Ibrox earlier in the year and against Celtic in the 4-3 game. We sat in and got pushed back further and further. I appreciate McGhee brought McDonald on but at this point we also needed to bring on Ainsworth or another winger who could provide a bit of respite and more importantly an outball for the remaining 15 minutes. This has been a consistent theme when we have been in similar situations all season. The first goal to me was a culmination of the above but the second was totally unacceptable. McHugh's pass to McManus wasn't the greatest but as we all agree McManus failed to deal with it in the way that he should (booting the ball up the park) An experienced defender like him should know so much better. This isn't the first time McManus has made a total arse of things and I don't think we should pretend this is a one off. Other than individual error my overiding feelings are 1. the manager is employing the wrong tactics in these situations 2. the players are mentally weak and don't have the mentality to cope at this level of match 3. we need both a winger and a decent defender. The whole situation is a bit tedious now, this has happened multiple times this season but we continue to set out the same tactics. As I said I think we have a bigger issue with mentality in our side in that we either can't live up to big games or perhaps we don't have enough belief to see things out. Ultimately the manager needs to take blame for both of these things but I hold the players to account for the lack of seeing things through and the individual mistakes made. To be honest the reaction from McGhee was more acceptable to me as atleast he showed how much it meant rather than him trotting out with cliches like he usually does. One main point; can we please not pretend this sort of display is 1. acceptable or 2. uncommon. This exact same situation has played out several times now and we have learned nothing. By no means am I saying we should not be more defensive away from home in certain circumstances but when we get on top don't sit so deep and most importantly stand off the opposition so much. We need to do this in moderation and when we can take control of the game do it rather than sittiing in and inviting pressure. These tactics are not working for us. Our defence is not strong enough to maintain this for 90 minutes. We were not 'unlucky' on Saturday, we were masters of our own downfall 100%. That's a great post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Following on from his Sportscene appearance yesterday, Skippy on Sportsound just now. Won't have a chance to listen live but hopefully he's asked about his injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underboyleheating Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 masters of our own downfall... Since 1886. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Our defence is not strong enough to maintain this for 90 minutes. We were not 'unlucky' on Saturday, we were masters of our own downfall 100%. Good post. I agree with your conclusion about us being masters of our downfall. Our shaky defence is only part of the problem. If you are going to defend for long spells you have to have a very solid and mobile midfield to shield the defence. We've seen some good teams come to Fir Park and defend for very long spells successfully. They defended 40 yards out and we had to work damned hard to get the ball anywhere near the penalty box. Their keepers rarely saw the ball. Crosses really had to be earned. Thats what we're not good at. We really need to tighten up midfield first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Watched the highlights on sportscene (must be glutton for punishment). And Yep Big Mick's mistake a howler but I think McHugh needs to take responsibility for both goals. I know he is just getting back to fitness but for both goals he could have done better. If that had been Clay there would have been a huge outcry. I am not here to defend Clay but I feel he is one of those players that gets singled out. Not the best player in squad but far from the worst. I have been huge Hammell fan but I feel now he is struggling and the amount of space he leaves any opposition right-sided player is a joke. So get your best on for Saturday, 3-0 Well with a Clay double and Hammell free-kick!!! heh he COYW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Fuck me. The posts on here from 1130am on Saturday when the teams were announced are saddening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 The reality is that crowds are affected by it. The Scottish Cup generates an interest in going to games that no other competition can. So for lots of lapsed fans, it is indeed season over. If fans don't support the club through the season it will be club over. Is that they want? Our support seriously fucks me off. Bunch of non effort, self flagellating fucking miseries. You should get a bottle of prozac and a kick in the arsehole when you go through the turnstiles at our place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 I've not been in here since Saturday and I've just skimmed through the thread. My thoughts when the team were announced were that we were too defensive. It was clear the plan was to get to 65-70 minutes, throw on another forward thinking player and try and win the game. The reason I didn't like it was because I thought there was no way we were good enough to get to 65-70 minutes on nil. We were lucky to do that as Hammell should have conceded a penalty and we got very lucky with an offside ten minutes into the second falf but broadly we managed it reasonably comfortably. McDonald did open the game up in our favour and when Moult headed home it looked like plan executed perfectly. Then it all went breasts north sadly. Rangers first goal was more good attacking than bad defending (a bit like our goal) but McHugh could have done better to stop Waghorn getting the ball and Heneghan drifted off Miller a bit but 1-1 was still an OK result. Where I disagree with a lot of the critics is that we didn't believe. Actually we went straight up the park and had two or three chances to win the game - I thought we looked like a team that did believe we could still win the game. And actually in my view McDonald's failure to properly make the cutback to Moult was as big an error as McManus's aberration and cost us one goal also. However the one constant is we make bad decisions. McDonald, Ainsworth and McManus have all tried a casual pass into midfield that was a risk too far and within seconds the ball has ended in our net in the dying embers of games v the Glasgow teams this season. Really need to learn there are times for launching it or if you going to try a clever pass ping it towards the wing and at least the team have a chance to get back. I really felt for McGhee on Saturday. I think he played it perfectly and his two most experienced players made a goal costing error at one end or the other in the final knockings and it cost us a place. I don't always think his formations work but actually on Saturday I think he nailed it and was let down by idiotic mistakes by people who should know better. In a way I quite liked his interview on Saturday because it showed how gutted he was and how much he cared but really the club should have pulled the one they did, long term it serves nobody any benefit. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn_Broomfield Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 If fans don't support the club through the season it will be club over. Is that they want? Our support seriously fucks me off. Bunch of non effort, self flagellating fucking miseries. You should get a bottle of prozac and a kick in the arsehole when you go through the turnstiles at our place. You seriously think fans should follow our league despite all that's wrong with it? Folk have been voting with their feet since 1998. I go every week, however I don't in anyway blame people who can't be arsed going any more because the Premiership is monotonous shite that has almost zero entertainment for your £300 odd basic for home games and £1000's for away games. The reality is, the Scotish Cup is the only attractive competition to PATG supporters in Scotland these days, not just for our lapsed fans, but for every team's lapsed fans. People can leave the league matches as we'll play the same team a few weeks later anyway. I've no doubt people would come back to Fir Park if it was attractive to do so. Scottish football isn't in any way attractive to the paying customer. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 ^^ this is why I rarely attend away matches anymore...its just not value for money. I make a point of buying my season ticket each year out of sheer loyalty to our Football Club and to bring my boys up as 'well fans...if it wasn't for the boys, I'd have one less reason to actually bother with the season book at all, so I can understand why so many people seem to have 'chucked it'. The standard is poor, not just in comparison to what we see on the TV from down south and abroad, but to what we've seen at Fir Park over the years. The cost is relatively high in comparison with other things that can be deemed 'entertainment' The league structure is monotonous ie playing the same teams over and over, as well as one team (as opposed to the usual 2) romping the league continually The fucking about with kick-off times...there is a good chance that I won't make Saturdays match for example, because of the early start...deteriorating the value of my season ticket The poor away supports that we continually see (and that we offer up as well), do nothing for the image of the game or for the spectacle of being at a match. I don't know what is so difficult about teams like ourselves, Killie, Dundee, Inverness, Ross County, Accies and Partick getting together to offer some sort of across the board discount to encourage fans of the opposing team to travel in numbers, rather than charging 100 fans £20 each to get into Victoria Park, why not charge 200 fans a tenner each...enhancing the product? Anyway, I'm dragging this well away from the Rangers thread...but basically, I can completely understand why, as BB says, some people find us being out of the Cup as virtually season over (unless we end up in a relegation fight). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I don't know what is so difficult about teams like ourselves, Killie, Dundee, Inverness, Ross County, Accies and Partick getting together to offer some sort of across the board discount to encourage fans of the opposing team to travel in numbers, rather than charging 100 fans £20 each to get into Victoria Park, why not charge 200 fans a tenner each...enhancing the product. While I don't disagree, it's not quite as simple as that, if you half the price, you won't double the gate, in fact if you just opened the gates and let folk in for free, you'd be lucky to half fill Fir park for a game against Killie, Patrick thistle etc. What is a valid point though is that a bigger away support will enhance "the match day experience" for everyone. The away fan is also a massively neglected market. Probably one of the few places clubs could easily grab in a few hundred extra folk, but they treat them with utter contempt. Motherwell are a great example, our away support varies from 200 to well over 1000, obviously there are various circumstances that contribute, but a club that put on a good well publicised offer would undoubtedly see the benefit of an increased response. Obviously the 200 will go regardless, but there's another maybe 2000 Motherwell fans who already go to games and will attend some away games, but just need a reason to go. This applies to MFC too, make Motherwell an attractive away day, make "Motherwell away" the game the occasional away fan sticks in their diary. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 This applies to MFC too, make Motherwell an attractive away day, make "Motherwell away" the game the occasional away fan sticks in their diary. Aye. First fixtures everyone looks at on our list is opening day, new year/Christmas, and when we go to Tynecastle, isn't it? I'd be surprised if that isn't common across the league. Even just simple stuff like not sticking fans in the top tier would surely be an improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 While I don't disagree, it's not quite as simple as that, if you half the price, you won't double the gate, in fact if you just opened the gates and let folk in for free, you'd be lucky to half fill Fir park for a game against Killie, Patrick thistle etc. What is a valid point though is that a bigger away support will enhance "the match day experience" for everyone. The away fan is also a massively neglected market. Probably one of the few places clubs could easily grab in a few hundred extra folk, but they treat them with utter contempt. Motherwell are a great example, our away support varies from 200 to well over 1000, obviously there are various circumstances that contribute, but a club that put on a good well publicised offer would undoubtedly see the benefit of an increased response. Obviously the 200 will go regardless, but there's another maybe 2000 Motherwell fans who already go to games and will attend some away games, but just need a reason to go. This applies to MFC too, make Motherwell an attractive away day, make "Motherwell away" the game the occasional away fan sticks in their diary. I used that as a quick, poorly-thought out example, purely as a point for discussion...there will be anomalies of course there will, Hamilton will never bring anymore fans over to Fir Park, regardless of price but you see what I'm getting at. I'm pretty confident that Motherwell would take bigger crowds to the likes of Killie, Thistle and Dundee (and vice versa), if there was a bit of joined up thinking between the clubs ie 'you let our fans in for a tenner and we'll do the same for you'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuwell Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I used that as a quick, poorly-thought out example, purely as a point for discussion...there will be anomalies of course there will, Hamilton will never bring anymore fans over to Fir Park, regardless of price but you see what I'm getting at. I'm pretty confident that Motherwell would take bigger crowds to the likes of Killie, Thistle and Dundee (and vice versa), if there was a bit of joined up thinking between the clubs ie 'you let our fans in for a tenner and we'll do the same for you'. Imagine the meltdown if folk thought away fans were getting in cheaper- I'd bet some season ticket holder would be demanding a refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Imagine the meltdown if folk thought away fans were getting in cheaper- I'd bet some season ticket holder would be demanding a refund. Aye you're probably right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Made Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Not if you do what Stenhousemuir did for a visit from Dunfermline last season. They offered discount to season ticket holders at East End a discount for their home game. Dunfermline I believe returned the offer. Season Ticket holders that then grumble are the ones that aren't taking advantage of a cheaper away day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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