Scottish Premiership Motherwell V Heart Of Midlothian Sat 4 Feb 12:15

[AlmostFrazzled]

The problem isn't that McHugh's was a red card. The problem is the massive inconsistency in these decisions. Fair enough if McHugh's was a red. But then that needs to be the same for everything. Kiernan on Hammell, Lucas getting his legs booted off at Inverness etc. If players know that any follow through means a straight red, they won't go into the challenge.

[wellowell]

Inconsistency is what Scottish football is all about Michael Stewart says definite red on sportscene yet in his Sun article he says looked a good tackle to him .After watching Match of the Day on Saturday and last night there is a massive difference between Scottish and English football in regards to tackling just look at Mata tackle yesterday 10 tunes worse than McHugh never even got ball yet was a yellow .Refs up here are self conscious prats who want to be the star of the show and never take a split second to think where down south they seem to give themselves thinking time which imo is the correct way .In England they seem to ask their assistants through link up what they thought but in Scotland red cards are pulled out in mili seconds as don't care what assistants think even if better angle than them.

[middleeastdave]

Consensus across Scottish football media is that McHugh was rightly sent off.

[middleeastdave]

Consensus across Scottish football media is that McHugh was rightly sent off.

Have to say I do agree that McHugh was rightly sent off after seeing the TV pictures, even although at the time of the incident I thought it was wrong decision. Hope they are not going to appeal the decision as all it would do empty our bank account of the £1000 it costs to appeal.

[Burn_Broomfield]

Consensus across Scottish football media is that McHugh was rightly sent off.

 

Dismiss that opinion immediately. Scottish Football Media and Football simply don't go together.

[sbcmfc]

 

Consensus across Scottish football media is that McHugh was rightly sent off.

I must admit I'm surprised at how many folk agree with the decision.

 

There was a time when that wasn't even a foul. I realise that getting the ball doesn't automatically make it not a foul, but for the punishment to be the same for a genuine and successful attempt to win the ball as it is for a waist high swipe seems unfair. Not to mention some of the most cynical of professional fouls only being a yellow.

 

The penalty decision in the Celtic game has opened up the video referee debate, but I'm not sure that helps on decisions like the Mchugh red, as it's a matter of opinion, unlike goal line technology or other points of fact.

 

The Celtic penalty didn't strike his arm, which is a matter of fact, but if it had, it becomes an opinion on whether it was deliberate...

[capt_oats]

Consensus across Scottish football media is that McHugh was rightly sent off.

 

What's curious (to me at least) is that there's nowhere near the same consensus between players. Gary Harkins was discussing it in a Twitter thread with Michael Stewart and Steven Thompson last night: https://twitter.com/garyharkins1985/status/828308039119810560

 

It seems to me like you separate groups here;

- those in the media & fans who are removed from the context of actually being on the pitch pointing at the rules and running with "by the letter of the law" angle

- players who seem to have a much more practical view of it and go with the gut feeling and instinctive reality of going for a 50:50, 60:40 challenge ie: "he's gone for (and won) the ball, Cowie wasn't injured, never a foul".

 

On the point of the appeal, it's worth noting that a "reckless" challenge is still only a yellow, it's when "excessive force" comes into play that you're looking at a red. For me the notion of "excessive force" is very much subjective and I'd have said that there's an argument there that at worst it'd have been a yellow.

 

If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.

• Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed

• Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned

• Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

 

Serious foul play

A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

 

http://www.fifa.com/mm/Document/FootballDevelopment/Refereeing/02/79/92/44/Laws.of.the.Game.2016.2017_Neutral.pdf

 

As an aside, and I realise this drifts off into the realms of 'whataboutery' but it's notable that of late we've heard referees piping up about how when making these decisions you should disregard the ball. It was interesting to me the notion of when referees should & shouldn't take intent to play the ball into account, for example, denying a goal-scoring opportunity;

 

Where a player commits an offence against an opponent within their own penalty area which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity and the referee awards a penalty kick, the offending player is cautioned unless:

• The offence is holding, pulling or pushing or

• The offending player does not attempt to play the ball or there is no possibility for the player making the challenge to play the ball or

• The offence is one which is punishable by a red card wherever it occurs on the field of play (e.g. serious foul play, violent conduct etc.)

 

In all the above circumstances the player is sent off.

 

So in one instance it's permissible to consider the ball and intent but not in a tackle in the field of play.

[Desp]

So, the referees are being told that, when applying the laws of football, during a game of football, they've to disregard the, ermm, actual football?

 

Fan-fucking-tastic. Sums it all up.

 

I've always said, I'm fed up of seeing players slide tackling each other when the ball is at the other end of the pitch...

[capt_oats]

So, the referees are being told that, when applying the laws of football, during a game of football, they've to disregard the, ermm, actual football?

 

Fan-fucking-tastic. Sums it all up.

 

I've always said, I'm fed up of seeing players slide tackling each other when the ball is at the other end of the pitch...

 

Yeah, Charlie Richmond seems to have been piping up quite a bit about Motherwell of late. It's apparently "irrelevant" if the player gets the ball.

 

This ran today: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/motherwell-can-no-complaints-carl-9764431

This went out a while back: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-fights-happen-motherwell-because-9393822

[steelboy]

I think this highlights the difference between the Scots and English games. The English game is harder and physically tougher and what is unacceptable up here is quite acceptable in England. I tend not to place too much store on the so called Scots' media views. Their opinions are overly influenced by which teams are playing.

 

I agree with this. I remember Hutchy getting a few bookings for perfect tackles just because the refs seemed scared of the size of him. Danny Lennon actually said a booking he got at St Mirren was the worst he'd ever seen.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that the ref that allows the most physical game is Madden. Guys like Dallas, Collum and most of the rest of them look they like some sort of auto immune disorder. People have been parroting for near enough two decades that we are too focused on size and the result is now we have probably the smallest international squad in Europe and zero decent centre halves and strikers.

[Lobey_Dosser]

Decent conversation on Sportsound just now involving McDonald and Derek Ferguson, echoing much of what has been discussed on here.

 

Motherwell not appealing McHugh's sending off. Burrows and McDonald came away from Hampden last week knowing that due to a rule change, you can rarely go to ground when tackling, regardless of whether you get the ball, as the tackle is inevitably going to involve force.

 

As an aside, Hearts' can't appeal the mistaken identity yellow. Joke!

[MelvinBragg]

Decent conversation on Sportsound just now involving McDonald and Derek Ferguson, echoing much of what has been discussed on here.

 

Motherwell not appealing McHugh's sending off. Burrows and McDonald came away from Hampden last week knowing that due to a rule change, you can rarely go to ground when tackling, regardless of whether you get the ball, as the tackle is inevitably going to involve force.

 

As an aside, Hearts' can't appeal the mistaken identity yellow. Joke!

The cynic in me suspects we're not appealing ad we'd rather have McHugh for the more winnable Dundee game..

[Lobey_Dosser]

The cynic in me suspects we're not appealing ad we'd rather have McHugh for the more winnable Dundee game..

We're just saving money and rightly so. Appeal would be heard before our next game.

[Kmcalpin]

Motherwell not appealing McHugh's sending off. Burrows and McDonald came away from Hampden last week knowing that due to a rule change, you can rarely go to ground when tackling, regardless of whether you get the ball, as the tackle is inevitably going to involve force.

 

 

So did our representatives know about the rule change before going to Hampden? If not why not?

 

The issue of inconsistency won't go away however. In the light of the above, I'd like to know more about the respective referees' reasoning for not issuing a red card to Cole at Inverness and Kiernan at Fir Park (less of a mystery). Did these refs not know of the rule change or did they just refuse to implement it?

[MelvinBragg]

We're just saving money and rightly so. Appeal would be heard before our next game.

You are correct and I'm losing the plot. Nightshift brain had me thinking Aberdeen was this week...

[steelboy]

There's a chance they would stick an extra game on like they did with Lasley last season if we appealed.

[Lobey_Dosser]

So did our representatives know about the rule change before going to Hampden? If not why not?

 

You sometimes have to take McDonald's comments with a pinch of salt but him and Burrows were told it was the responsibility of the club to inform players of rule changes. McDonald implied this didn't happen in the summer. It was also pointed out that the SFA really should take more responsibility when distributing such information and where necessary, provide demonstrations to avoid inconsistent interpretation.

[Kmcalpin]

You sometimes have to take McDonald's comments with a pinch of salt but him and Burrows were told it was the responsibility of the club to inform players of rule changes. McDonald implied this didn't happen in the summer. It was also pointed out that the SFA really should take more responsibility when distributing such information and where necessary, provide demonstrations to avoid inconsistent interpretation.

Its a very poor day indeed, although not surprising, when the SFA cannot ensure consistent interpretation amongst its own employees.

[Burn_Broomfield]

Decent conversation on Sportsound just now involving McDonald and Derek Ferguson, echoing much of what has been discussed on here.

 

Motherwell not appealing McHugh's sending off. Burrows and McDonald came away from Hampden last week knowing that due to a rule change, you can rarely go to ground when tackling, regardless of whether you get the ball, as the tackle is inevitably going to involve force.

 

As an aside, Hearts' can't appeal the mistaken identity yellow. Joke!

 

 

That is fucking mental. We'd be as well just stopping football all together.

[capt_oats]

Was listening to Skippy & Derek Ferguson on the radio on the way in to 5s. Genuinely a really interesting listen, thought Charlie Richmond was good too.

 

The whole thing should be up on Sportsound's podcast later this evening.

[Kmcalpin]

due to a rule change, you can rarely go to ground when tackling, regardless of whether you get the ball, as the tackle is inevitably going to involve force.

 

 

Does that then mean that any slide tackle, which involves going to ground, will be deemed a red card whether or not contact is made with the opposing player?

[CoF]

McDonald cleared it up quite nicely and actually said following his appearance at the appeal committee (is that the name?), he can understand why he was red carded. He said a new 'technicality' was introduced this summer which places an emphasis on whether the tackle has endangered the opponent. This makes winning the ball an irrelevance and would also give clear grounds for sending McHugh off. McDonald was saying he would now question going into any slide tackle now. As far as I'm aware, that's always been a part of the rules however it seems they are now placing far greater weight on that over winning the ball.

 

I think two issues are (as was also discussed on the programme), communicating that the players - which McDonald suggested is the responsibility of the clubs - and applying that rule consistently, which is the responsibility of the refs. It appears neither have happened particularly well.

 

As for my own thoughts - I'd like to understand the rationale for this decision making. Yes, players need protection and there is always the horrible risk of career enders in the game, however is it happening so frequently that it needed an re-evaluation of the rules? A proper study of injuries and how they happen is the only way to consider whether this is good for the game - whether the SFA did this or not is another question.

 

I'm sure we'll all be looking intently at how refs handle any heavy challenges over the next few weeks.

[steelboy]

Or the SFA changed the criteria to make getting reds over turned more difficult so the refs look useless.

[wellowell]

Seems Scottish refs only ones using these rules i watch lots of football esp Spain and Premier league as well as in Italy and if Collum and Dallas refed in they leagues would be 2 or 3 sent off every game. When big games in Europe or at big finals come around always refs from these countries about but ours are well gone by then so maybe that should tell them something . Also this season alone heard big players from they leagues giving Thompson and Collum a hard time afterwords and can't argue with their assesements they should just count themselves lucky they don't get them every week.

[superward]

The cynic in me suspects we're not appealing ad we'd rather have McHugh for the more winnable Dundee game..

This