Alexander.

[David]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

How else can you explain it then Watt suddenly wanting a move, SOD getting picked for Scotland and not playing with us, Slattery allegedly injured and not playing for weeks, and then Woolery suddenly fancying a Turkish delight.

It's not really that hard to explain. 

Tony Watt was offered more money  to go to Dundee United. Simple as that. He didn't "suddenly" want a move, he became interested when he realised not only could he move in the summer and earn more than we were paying him, but could leave us in January and start earning higher wages quicker. 

Same goes with Woolery. He didn't "suddenly" fancy a move to Turkey. He only became interested once the opportunity popped up, and rightfully so, as he'll also be on more money than we were paying him. 

And are just going to kid on that O'Donnell had been playing well for us and that all of the Motherwell fans were fully behind him getting picked for Scotland? Go back to the start of the year and into March on this forum and see the type of reaction O'Donnell was getting.

In fact, just put his name in the search bar above. 

So let's not kid on that O'Donnell being dropped was a travesty, and was all down to him arguing and falling out with the manager. It wasn't. He was shit.

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

He lost the dressing room and as I have said his own arrogance and lack of a plan B gave us 3 wins in 14 games thank feck for Lamie we made top 6.

Did he lose the dressing room? It's interesting that we're all willing to buy into rumours and made-up "facts" yet the only noises coming out the dressing room are from our captain and best player who says exactly the opposite.

Do we believe him? Or just ignore Kelly's comments because it doesn't fit with the anti-Alexander narrative?

I didn't think Alexander was particularly great as a manager, but I'm also not that sure we can expect to do much better. Alexander's record down south is decent enough, with promotion won for Fleetwood Town, took Scunthorpe to the play-offs, and got Salford promoted while taking them to a cup final. I know lots of our fans like to kid themselves on that he was a donkey, but his record says otherwise.

Let's hope the next guy we bring in can live up to the lofty expectations of the experts we have in our fanbase.

[Spiderpig]

3 minutes ago, David said:

It's not really that hard to explain. 

Tony Watt was offered more money  to go to Dundee United. Simple as that. He didn't "suddenly" want a move, he became interested when he realised not only could he move in the summer and earn more than we were paying him, but could leave us in January and start earning higher wages quicker. 

Same goes with Woolery. He didn't "suddenly" fancy a move to Turkey. He only became interested once the opportunity popped up, and rightfully so, as he'll also be on more money than we were paying him. 

And are just going to kid on that O'Donnell had been playing well for us and that all of the Motherwell fans were fully behind him getting picked for Scotland? Go back to the start of the year and into March on this forum and see the type of reaction O'Donnell was getting.

In fact, just put his name in the search bar above. 

So let's not kid on that O'Donnell being dropped was a travesty, and was all down to him arguing and falling out with the manager. It wasn't. He was shit.

Did he lose the dressing room? It's interesting that we're all willing to buy into rumours and made-up "facts" yet the only noises coming out the dressing room are from our captain and best player who says exactly the opposite.

Do we believe him? Or just ignore Kelly's comments because it doesn't fit with the anti-Alexander narrative?

I didn't think Alexander was particularly great as a manager, but I'm also not that sure we can expect to do much better. Alexander's record down south is decent enough, with promotion won for Fleetwood Town, took Scunthorpe to the play-offs, and got Salford promoted while taking them to a cup final. I know lots of our fans like to kid themselves on that he was a donkey, but his record says otherwise.

Let's hope the next guy we bring in can live up to the lofty expectations of the experts we have in our fanbase.

Nah I'll stick to the "GA was an arrogant hopeless man manager and coach with limited abilities  who had no idea how to get us winning again" conspiracy,  he's history now so Let's wait and see who his replacement is.

[Yorkyred]

24 minutes ago, David said:

It's not really that hard to explain. 

Tony Watt was offered more money  to go to Dundee United. Simple as that. He didn't "suddenly" want a move, he became interested when he realised not only could he move in the summer and earn more than we were paying him, but could leave us in January and start earning higher wages quicker. 

Same goes with Woolery. He didn't "suddenly" fancy a move to Turkey. He only became interested once the opportunity popped up, and rightfully so, as he'll also be on more money than we were paying him. 

And are just going to kid on that O'Donnell had been playing well for us and that all of the Motherwell fans were fully behind him getting picked for Scotland? Go back to the start of the year and into March on this forum and see the type of reaction O'Donnell was getting.

In fact, just put his name in the search bar above. 

So let's not kid on that O'Donnell being dropped was a travesty, and was all down to him arguing and falling out with the manager. It wasn't. He was shit.

Did he lose the dressing room? It's interesting that we're all willing to buy into rumours and made-up "facts" yet the only noises coming out the dressing room are from our captain and best player who says exactly the opposite.

Do we believe him? Or just ignore Kelly's comments because it doesn't fit with the anti-Alexander narrative?

I didn't think Alexander was particularly great as a manager, but I'm also not that sure we can expect to do much better. Alexander's record down south is decent enough, with promotion won for Fleetwood Town, took Scunthorpe to the play-offs, and got Salford promoted while taking them to a cup final. I know lots of our fans like to kid themselves on that he was a donkey, but his record says otherwise.

Let's hope the next guy we bring in can live up to the lofty expectations of the experts we have in our fanbase.

Supporters make things up, always have and always will. Sometimes simple facts like a player actually not playing well enough to retain their place is not seen as good enough, even when half the fan base is stating they’re shit. The “lost the dressing room” is trotted out time and time again, I doubt it’s true 95% of the time.

[Spiderpig]

17 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

Supporters make things up, always have and always will. Sometimes simple facts like a player actually not playing well enough to retain their place is not seen as good enough, even when half the fan base is stating they’re shit. The “lost the dressing room” is trotted out time and time again, I doubt it’s true 95% of the time.

So we had 10 out of 11 (Kelly excepted) players all suffering a slump in form at the same time then week after week, I guess the club was just unlucky then.

[Yorkyred]

25 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

So we had 10 out of 11 (Kelly excepted) players all suffering a slump in form at the same time then week after week, I guess the club was just unlucky then.

Oh luck can play a part, many  other factors do of course including losing your most effective player and confidence dropping when you go on a poor run. Injuries can also be added to that but the old “lost the dressing room” is just a tired cliche in many cases in my view. How often is that said followed by players then signing extended contracts ? It it was that bad why did Lamie choose to stay, Van Veen sign an extended contract, Kelly speak up for Alexander to name just three examples. Was  ODonnell playing well enough to retain his place, Slattery fit enough ? . There will always be players who fall out with managers, certainly if not being picked, or dropped, that’s just football. In any dressing room there will be four or five not happy.

[dennyc]

David and Yorkyred I admire you for your ongoing robust defence of our former Manager. If you believe there was no animosity between Alexander and former/current players which affected moral within the squad then I think you are in the minority. Like everyone else you are entitled to your opinion and you fight your corner well. Whether any such animosity was justified or otherwise at times is another discussion.

As for O'Donnell being "shit", even an out of form O'Donnell was miles better than Mugabi at right back. And I'm not having a dig at Mugabi as he was clearly trying his best and doing as he was instructed. SOD is one who certainly has his detractors (as you highlighted) but how many of them were on his back before he even kicked a ball for us? Whatever, he  certainly brought a better balance to the team when he featured.

That's the same Mugabi who was repeatedly exposed at right back by Alexander ( and we are seeing the effect on Mugabi to this day) whilst a reportedly fully fit SOD was left to rot on the bench. Why, if not for spite? Drop him altogether if he has no chance of featuring. Like he did with Liam Grimshaw.  Alexander even resorted to O'Hara rather than O'Donnell on occasion. Seems quite clear to me, as it did with Slattery, Woolery and others who seemed to be ignored no matter what.

One thing you cannot deny or deflect from is that the performances on the pitch were really what was "shit" for 6 months, and arguably longer. Both in a tactical sense and a results sense. And that in most people's view was down to Alexander's refusal to adapt or try a fresh approach when his approach was failing. Sure, the players were not blameless, but it was the depressing and seemingly clueless match day performances that brought his time as Manager to an end.  In fact but for a loyalty shown by our Board Alexander might not have lasted to season end. He was given credit for earlier achievements and allowed to take us into a new season in the hope that he could improve the situation. Had he shown any inclination to adapt he may well have survived a bit longer. 

Alexander does have his supporters amongst the players he left behind,  but I honestly think the number thankful to see the back of him will be in the majority. Whatever, as professionals they all need to pull together to take the Club forward. No matter who the new Manager is.

 

[gaz7]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

David and Yorkyred I admire you for your ongoing robust defence of our former Manager. If you believe there was no animosity between Alexander and former/current players which affected moral within the squad then I think you are in the minority. Like everyone else you are entitled to your opinion and you fight your corner well. Whether any such animosity was justified or otherwise at times is another discussion.

As for O'Donnell being "shit", even an out of form O'Donnell was miles better than Mugabi at right back. And I'm not having a dig at Mugabi as he was clearly trying his best and doing as he was instructed. SOD is one who certainly has his detractors (as you highlighted) but how many of them were on his back before he even kicked a ball for us? Whatever, he  certainly brought a better balance to the team when he featured.

That's the same Mugabi who was repeatedly exposed at right back by Alexander ( and we are seeing the effect on Mugabi to this day) whilst a reportedly fully fit SOD was left to rot on the bench. Why, if not for spite? Drop him altogether if he has no chance of featuring. Like he did with Liam Grimshaw.  Alexander even resorted to O'Hara rather than O'Donnell on occasion. Seems quite clear to me, as it did with Slattery, Woolery and others who seemed to be ignored no matter what.

One thing you cannot deny or deflect from is that the performances on the pitch were really what was "shit" for 6 months, and arguably longer. Both in a tactical sense and a results sense. And that in most people's view was down to Alexander's refusal to adapt or try a fresh approach when his approach was failing. Sure, the players were not blameless, but it was the depressing and seemingly clueless match day performances that brought his time as Manager to an end.  In fact but for a loyalty shown by our Board Alexander might not have lasted to season end. He was given credit for earlier achievements and allowed to take us into a new season in the hope that he could improve the situation. Had he shown any inclination to adapt he may well have survived a bit longer. 

Alexander does have his supporters amongst the players he left behind,  but I honestly think the number thankful to see the back of him will be in the majority. Whatever, as professionals they all need to pull together to take the Club forward. No matter who the new Manager is.

 

Great Post Dennyc and your point on odonnell is my view also.  For other poster to say dropped because he was shit is actually laughable and whilst yes he had poor games he was and is still the best full back in squad and Alexander definitely had a fall out with him. This did happen .

Odonnell is from our area and I'm sure there are some on here that know him or his family or friends and this is why it's easy to confirm. 

 

[Coatsy]

59 minutes ago, dennyc said:

As for O'Donnell being "shit", even an out of form O'Donnell was miles better than Mugabi at right back. And I'm not having a dig at Mugabi as he was clearly trying his best and doing as he was instructed. SOD is one who certainly has his detractors (as you highlighted) but how many of them were on his back before he even kicked a ball for us? Whatever, he  certainly brought a better balance to the team when he featured.

That's the same Mugabi who was repeatedly exposed at right back by Alexander ( and we are seeing the effect on Mugabi to this day) whilst a reportedly fully fit SOD was left to rot on the bench. Why, if not for spite? Drop him altogether if he has no chance of featuring. Like he did with Liam Grimshaw.  Alexander even resorted to O'Hara rather than O'Donnell on occasion. Seems quite clear to me, as it did with Slattery, Woolery and others who seemed to be ignored no matter what.

 

Firstly its strange that a management team  on Defenders could not train a team to defend.

O'Donnell was a big upgrade on Grimshaw when he arrived, but was at fault for far too many bad goals and deserved to be dropped. Mugabi IMO  was one of our best players last year and even at right back was effective initially, however latterly was found wanting and his weakness exposed.  But i would say that his confidence must have take a battering after that first leg against Sligo and the abuse he got for it. 

I feel the recruitment and player judgement has let  Alexander down badly,  That includes the numerous January jersey fillers that amounted to the square sum of nothing in the defensive area Ojala looked good when signed but now is slower than a week in jail, Solholm may be a good lad but is a championship defender at beat, Giving Carroll and McGinlay extensions was madness. 

The associated wingers forwards that have come and gone are not the quality required and have left i include Woolery in this you need more than just pace.

We have not one player that can carry the ball commit a player or beat a player.  Infact last year we had a team that couldn't even string a couple of passes together.

Not in the camp that loosing Watt was disastrous, Watt is a journeyman generally lazy and does not stay at a club for long look at his record, i feel that we saw him having a purple patch it was best of him. Has he scored against anyone else bar us playing for Dundee Utd  he was particularly good at falling over and winning free kicks in dangerous areas and we benefited from that, not replacing him with another CF was a mistake.

The SPFL quality is terrible is that to do with the pressure on the players and teams to stay in the league i'm not sure , but i do think that managers that are unfamiliar with the Scottish game misjudge the type of player required. Hopefully a new manager will unearth a few gems and be able to train the team in a way that provides attractive football aka mcghee V1. There was something wrong when we played lower league opposition and they passed us off the park.

I was hoping that Alexander could have turned it around but as I've said before not preparing properly for a big money tie in Europe is reason for letting him go. Austria! waist of money, should have been in Ireland or somewhere playing all the teams he could it get some sharpness into them,

Onwards and upwards, a quality manager could make some difference in this league, even like what Hammy is saying about promoting youth all good until your at the wrong end of the league with everyone crying because you've no experience.

 

 

[bobbybingo]

We better hope Alexander either lost  a significant part of the dressing room or hadn't a clue what he was doing tactically, because if that was a happy squad of players playing to the best of their abilities, we're in deep shit.

[David]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

As for O'Donnell being "shit", even an out of form O'Donnell was miles better than Mugabi at right back. And I'm not having a dig at Mugabi as he was clearly trying his best and doing as he was instructed. SOD is one who certainly has his detractors (as you highlighted) but how many of them were on his back before he even kicked a ball for us? Whatever, he  certainly brought a better balance to the team when he featured.

The thing is, if you go back and read the posts from January to March you'll see that I was fully supportive of O'Donnell. I wouldn't have dropped him, but the manager dropped him because he looked to suffer a dip in form, which cannot be argued against.

I don't think Mugabi is better than him at right-back, and believe O'Donnell was our best option there last season, but there's a lot of fans who didn't think that. They were screaming for O'Donnell to get punted. 

The point I'm making is that now, looking back, there's fans changing the narrative retrospectively because they want to shoehorn in the notion that he had a falling out with the manager, and that it's Alexander's fault. When in reality they were glad to see O'Donnell benched.

And I'm not saying that there wasn't tension between O'Donnell and Alexander. There should be, considering O'Donnell wants to play and the manager had dropped him. But let's not kid on that O'Donnell was dropped because he challenged Alexander, which is what some folk are saying. He was dropped because he didn't play well last season, which is the reason Alexander brought in McGinn to replace him.

 

[wellfan]

41 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

We better hope Alexander either lost  a significant part of the dressing room or hadn't a clue what he was doing tactically, because if that was a happy squad of players playing to the best of their abilities, we're in deep shit.

He also signed some shit players.

[bobbybingo]

3 minutes ago, wellfan said:

He also signed some shit players.

Every manager does. Question is, how many?

[Great Balls of Shire]

6 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

How else can you explain it then Watt suddenly wanting a move, SOD getting picked for Scotland and not playing with us, Slattery allegedly injured and not playing for weeks, and then Woolery suddenly fancying a Turkish delight.

He lost the dressing room and as I have said his own arrogance and lack of a plan B gave us 3 wins in 14 games thank feck for Lamie we made top 6.

Yes this might all be conspiracy theory shite but as we will never know the truth it will do for now

thought sod cme on on sunday and looked quite good but at times was lucky to be getting in Motherwell team , never mind Scotland

Woolery again was limited but had great pace, havent heard anything about supposed fall out?

Slattery , there may be more to it than simply getting dropped

That only leaves Watt, who has doubled his wages

Not sticking up for GA but sometimes the truth is a whole lot duller than people want to believe

[weeyin]

It's no coincidence we had struggles with full backs on both sides of the park last season when we had zero cover in the 3-man midfield and the opposition had free rein on the wings.

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, gaz7 said:

Great Post Dennyc and your point on odonnell is my view also.  For other poster to say dropped because he was shit is actually laughable and whilst yes he had poor games he was and is still the best full back in squad and Alexander definitely had a fall out with him. This did happen .

Odonnell is from our area and I'm sure there are some on here that know him or his family or friends and this is why it's easy to confirm. 

 

how many mistakes did sod have to make before being dropped? I thought GA kept faith with him for a while before leaving him out...i am not a GA fan and glad he has gone ,but i doubt he left thes players out due to "spite" i wish him well tho

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, David said:

The thing is, if you go back and read the posts from January to March you'll see that I was fully supportive of O'Donnell. I wouldn't have dropped him, but the manager dropped him because he looked to suffer a dip in form, which cannot be argued against.

I don't think Mugabi is better than him at right-back, and believe O'Donnell was our best option there last season, but there's a lot of fans who didn't think that. They were screaming for O'Donnell to get punted. 

The point I'm making is that now, looking back, there's fans changing the narrative retrospectively because they want to shoehorn in the notion that he had a falling out with the manager, and that it's Alexander's fault. When in reality they were glad to see O'Donnell benched.

And I'm not saying that there wasn't tension between O'Donnell and Alexander. There should be, considering O'Donnell wants to play and the manager had dropped him. But let's not kid on that O'Donnell was dropped because he challenged Alexander, which is what some folk are saying. He was dropped because he didn't play well last season, which is the reason Alexander brought in McGinn to replace him.

 

I suppose it's really how you view it.

For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him.

I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused.  When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game.

So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two. Otherwise, when the team you are responsible for is struggling badly and ultimately your job will be on the line, why not turn to the best, fit right back you have at your disposal.

Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

[wunderwell]

Short term memories.  O'Donnell made about five critical errors in games in a row. Crazy handballs to not clearing his lines (remember now?) gifting goals.

I am the polar opposite to your narrative, I couldn't believe when we signed O'Donnell and thought it was a coup for the club.

Stinks of player power and when Gannon got sacked for dropping seniors who were simply not playing well.

No one has a god given right to play when they are playing poorly.

Which is why I found it nice and refreshing to see the young man make his debut last week ahead of Tierney who played poorly in his last game.

 

* Name 5 decent games he's had. Where did he finish in last seasons  votes by fans?

[dennyc]

11 hours ago, wunderwell said:

 

 

* Name 5 decent games he's had. Where did he finish in last seasons  votes by fans?

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

[Haggischomper]

We needed a left back. Alexander signed a right back so now we have two international right backs. The whole preparation for this season has stank to high heaven and now we are trying to get players match fit by playing them in actual league games. It has been a shockingly unprofessional off-season even disregarding the Sligo results. Almost feels like GA was working his ticket but, surely, no professional would do that (apart from Dec)?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Winning by Name]

11 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

Great response!

[David]

17 hours ago, dennyc said:

For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him.

I suppose the same could be said about Alexander. And, sadly, will no doubt be the case with whoever is next to take the reins at the club. Unless they're a former player who the majority of fans like.

An example of that would be Paul Lambert. I've seen a number of fans saying they'd take him because he was a good player for us. I follow Ipswich Town, and if our fans think Graham Alexander's football was bad, they better hope Lambert never gets the job. At one point with Ipswich Lambert was sitting on 2 wins from 25 games.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused.  When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game.

Oh, Alexander played a part in things. Where I tend to disagree is this notion in certain areas that Alexander dropped him and didn't bring him back because O'Donnell was reportedly a lone voice standing against the evil, arrogant manager who doesn't know what he's doing. 

I just think he saw, like the rest of us, the errors he was making quite consistently in games last season and thought that he wasn't good enough. Was he right in that assessment? I don't think so, and I certainly don't think he's worse than Mugabi or any of the other players he tried to shoehorn into that position.

But I think it's an honest assessment. And it's not insane to believe that he just didn't rate O'Donnell.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two.

If there was animosity between the two of them why would he bother picking him at all? Surely having him on the bench suggests that he thought he was worth having as a backup, even if he didn't rate him as highly as some.

Again, I honestly think if Alexander was arrogant and fighting with his own team, dropping people out of spite and so on, he wouldn't have the backing of the captain. Kelly had no reason to come out and say what he did. He didn't have to do it, but he did, which tells you the respect he has for him.

I don't believe Kelly would feel that way if Alexander was the type who was ostracising his team-mates.

I just think he didn't rate Stephen O'Donnell. Which isn't a crazy notion, as a large chunk of our fanbase don't rate him either.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

Oh, absolutely. He signed McGinn to replace O'Donnell. Now, here's a question. What if the next manager comes in and thinks McGinn is a better option than O'Donnell as well? 

[wunderwell]

23 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

I think we will but this is the last I will say. You clearly have more people agreeing with you as you have the post likes!

How where they not treated the same way? Carroll and McGinley played a merry go round with each other and both ended up starting less games than O'Donnell. I do agree that both individuals more particularly Carroll was at fault for certain goals and he did lose his place like O'Donnell. So how is that not the same? Shields only started 17 matches in a yoyo season, was he treated unfairly? MacGuire was injured for most of the season. Watt was our best player and led us ultimately to 5th dropping him would have been insane.

I don't think I agree that our support on Steelmenonline online are petty enough that if O'Donnell had some form of cracking game the fans would not vote for him. Kelly won man of the match in our last game by a mile where some of his comments may have caused supporters not to vote. I cannot remember O'Donnell having good games. I've seen him be ok but can't recollect better than that. Talking about this Motherwell supporters site and the BBC where one man and his dog voted is not comparable.

It's up to O'Donnell to prove me wrong, if he plays well I'll be the first to acknowledge. There is no grudge to bare. He simply needs to do the business on the pitch.

PS: I agree with every single post David has made, more eloquently put than myself! (but i did use the word eloquently)

[Great Balls of Shire]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:12 PM, dennyc said:

Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

[dennyc]

3 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Not at all. I think in those days fans were a bit more rational when it came to certain other teams. Since then sporting dislike has turned to obsessive hatred for some. A blight that sadly affects more than Motherwell. "Tribal" is the word often used.

[Spiderpig]

8 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Boyd and McKinnon were decent full backs in their time, Boyd might be an obnoxious celtic obsessed arsehole these days, but he was a decent player back in the day.