Fergie79 Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 Sturm Graz potentially Biereth's next destination apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The African Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 A pertinent reminder to all that loan players brought in are not our players and, if successful with us, only likely to price themselves out of our budget in the longer term. Unfortunately the disparity in finance between the likes of Arsenal and ourselves means that they hold all the aces and they can use us to develop their young talent with our only benefit being possible short term gain from half a season of appearances. As these bigger clubs continue to hoover up all the best young players, it looks like a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon. Throw in the fact that any talk of financial FairPlay in football is a joke and we need to perhaps look closer at developing our own young players for any longer term progress. No point getting too upset about it, but just another example of how managing a club like ours is getting progressively harder. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 9 hours ago, gaz7 said: Think your wrong here spider. Biereth wages are miniscule in a club like arsenal and reason he is away is quite simply better league for him to be tested in. I agree, it likely has very little to do with financial savings on the relatively low wages Biereth gets at Arsenal. It's more likely that the loan management team in London has looked at his numbers and performances up here and figured he's shown that he can perform at this level and that it would be more worthwhile seeing if he can do a job at a higher level for the next six months rather than continue as he is here, which would really tell them nothing. What this situation should tell us is that we cannot rely on loan signings. They will either come in and do terribly like Shaw or do well like Biereth and end up becoming a loss risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz7 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 26 minutes ago, David said: What this situation should tell us is that we cannot rely on loan signings. They will either come in and do terribly like Shaw or do well like Biereth and end up becoming a loss risk. Yes we shouldn't and can't rely on loan signings but hopefully we see more of biereths like from real big clubs like arsenal etc and not so much journeyman crap from league 2 in England. Young players from top clubs like arsenal are hungry and talented , even championship clubs players are on different level as can be seen with Spencer and gent this season. Those 3 have arguably been our best players this season and certainly most exciting. If we can get some of those as loans every year it allayed to a good core then we should certainly improve I feel. Alas the good core at the moment is not there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 4 hours ago, The African said: A pertinent reminder to all that loan players brought in are not our players and, if successful with us, only likely to price themselves out of our budget in the longer term. Unfortunately the disparity in finance between the likes of Arsenal and ourselves means that they hold all the aces and they can use us to develop their young talent with our only benefit being possible short term gain from half a season of appearances. As these bigger clubs continue to hoover up all the best young players, it looks like a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon. Throw in the fact that any talk of financial FairPlay in football is a joke and we need to perhaps look closer at developing our own young players for any longer term progress. No point getting too upset about it, but just another example of how managing a club like ours is getting progressively harder. Great point but the usual suspects will blame the board , mgr etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 The opportunity presented by successful loanees, such as we’ve seen with Spencer, Gent, and Biereth, should only ever be seen as a bonus and not the solution for a club of our financial stature. This doesn't mean we should stop seeking more Biereth’s. However, once we start to rely on loanees to get us over the finish line, which I think is what we’ve had to do recently because a lot of our permanent signings and youth players have not been good enough, we will find ourselves in trouble and in need of a continual rebuild every window, as we do right now. History is repeating itself this January, which again calls into question our recruitment and youth development strategies. We can't go on like this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 19 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said: Great point but the usual suspects will blame the board , mgr etc How true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 20 minutes ago, wellfan said: The opportunity presented by successful loanees, such as we’ve seen with Spencer, Gent, and Biereth, should only ever be seen as a bonus and not the solution for a club of our financial stature. This doesn't mean we should stop seeking more Biereth’s. However, once we start to rely on loanees to get us over the finish line, which I think is what we’ve had to do recently because a lot of our permanent signings and youth players have not been good enough, we will find ourselves in trouble and in need of a continual rebuild every window, as we do right now. History is repeating itself this January, which again calls into question our recruitment and youth development strategies. We can't go on like this. Great post. Loans can be a short term solution to a short term problem but thats the extent of it. I think our club will have learnt this lesson now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, David said: I agree, it likely has very little to do with financial savings on the relatively low wages Biereth gets at Arsenal. It's more likely that the loan management team in London has looked at his numbers and performances up here and figured he's shown that he can perform at this level and that it would be more worthwhile seeing if he can do a job at a higher level for the next six months rather than continue as he is here, which would really tell them nothing. What this situation should tell us is that we cannot rely on loan signings. They will either come in and do terribly like Shaw or do well like Biereth and end up becoming a loss risk. Probably another topic on its own but if football could implement a rule where you need a certain amount, e.g 4 home grown players in each team, would stop the man city's etc buying everyone and anyone. Hopefully this is the start of something down south with clubs being docked points. Feel a bit for Everton , who don't strike me as massive spenders I've gone completely off topic but there you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 11 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Great post. Loans can be a short term solution to a short term problem but thats the extent of it. I think our club will have learnt this lesson now. I sincerely hope so, although I concede that we will probably have to rely on more loanees this window to see us to the end of the season because we're apparently skint. A big reset coming this summer, from top to bottom, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 34 minutes ago, wellfan said: The opportunity presented by successful loanees, such as we’ve seen with Spencer, Gent, and Biereth, should only ever be seen as a bonus and not the solution for a club of our financial stature. This doesn't mean we should stop seeking more Biereth’s. However, once we start to rely on loanees to get us over the finish line, which I think is what we’ve had to do recently because a lot of our permanent signings and youth players have not been good enough, we will find ourselves in trouble and in need of a continual rebuild every window, as we do right now. History is repeating itself this January, which again calls into question our recruitment and youth development strategies. We can't go on like this. I agree with everything you're saying, but I do worry about how we get 'round the youth development issue. Clubs like ourselves seem to be in a position where young guys showing any talent will be snatched by bigger vultures for negligible financial compensation before they've had a chance to contribute much, or anything, to our first team. The ones we're left with probably won't make it at our level. If we don't get the playing benefit from our youths, we need to get the pay up benefit, but getting guys like Johnston or Miller to sign 5 year deals obviously isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davkel Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 On 1/17/2024 at 11:41 AM, wellup83 said: I get the frustration re the potential Halliday signing but we need to be realistic. We're not signing any regular starter in the January window. We simply don't have the funds to facilitate moves for regular, match fit players. Personally I think Halliday would be a decent addition. Providing we're not breaking the bank of course. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Balls of Shire Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, wellfan said: The opportunity presented by successful loanees, such as we’ve seen with Spencer, Gent, and Biereth, should only ever be seen as a bonus and not the solution for a club of our financial stature. This doesn't mean we should stop seeking more Biereth’s. However, once we start to rely on loanees to get us over the finish line, which I think is what we’ve had to do recently because a lot of our permanent signings and youth players have not been good enough, we will find ourselves in trouble and in need of a continual rebuild every window, as we do right now. History is repeating itself this January, which again calls into question our recruitment and youth development strategies. We can't go on like this. Fair dues but if there was a simple solution, like grow your own, the club would have and are trying it ...but it's obviously not as simple as it sounds .For every Lennon Miller etc, there'll be god knows how many who don't make it or go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ped_MFC Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 If we're looking for an experienced centre-forward who can also inspire and encourage the younger players then Troy Deeney is available I believe. Or maybe not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Made Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 52 minutes ago, Ped_MFC said: If we're looking for an experienced centre-forward who can also inspire and encourage the younger players then Troy Deeney is available I believe. Or maybe not. That was no surprise that was coming after his comments earlier in the week. *Just noticed he was also given a 4 game suspension as well for conduct last month. It is good to see at least another club who is chewing up and spitting out managers at a faster rate than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 4 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said: Fair dues but if there was a simple solution, like grow your own, the club would have and are trying it ...but it's obviously not as simple as it sounds .For every Lennon Miller etc, there'll be god knows how many who don't make it or go elsewhere. True, but we're throwing away good money during the now cyclical January panic mode, which I would argue would be better for the long-term if invested in youth development, but that's not easy or a silver bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 5 hours ago, bobbybingo said: I agree with everything you're saying, but I do worry about how we get 'round the youth development issue. Clubs like ourselves seem to be in a position where young guys showing any talent will be snatched by bigger vultures for negligible financial compensation before they've had a chance to contribute much, or anything, to our first team. The ones we're left with probably won't make it at our level. If we don't get the playing benefit from our youths, we need to get the pay up benefit, but getting guys like Johnston or Miller to sign 5 year deals obviously isn't going to happen. You're not wrong regarding the youth development issue; perhaps the financial compensation scheme, as alluded to by our leaders, needs to be looked at again. Additionally, as I said in my reply above, perhaps we should try to move to a position where we allocate more money to invest in youth development and retention instead of having no money for that due to blowing our load on panic signings every January window. It's not a 1-2 year fix; it requires a reset aligned with an appropriately costed strategy, which will also have risks. I suppose it doesn't have to be one or the other, but the balance is way off right now, and that cannot go on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 45 minutes ago, wellfan said: True, but we're throwing away good money during the now cyclical January panic mode, which I would argue would be better for the long-term if invested in youth development, but that's not easy or a silver bullet. Yes investment in developing our own players is great in principle but it's also a risky strategy as from an academy squad of say 15 you might only get 1 maybe 2 that will step up to the 1st team. You can't guarantee a Johnson, Miller or Turnbull every year so no saleable assets are a distinct possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretzel Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 Andy Halliday now joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 38 minutes ago, wellfan said: You're not wrong regarding the youth development issue; perhaps the financial compensation scheme, as alluded to by our leaders, needs to be looked at again. Additionally, as I said in my reply above, perhaps we should try to move to a position where we allocate more money to invest in youth development and retention instead of having no money for that due to blowing our load on panic signings every January window. It's not a 1-2 year fix; it requires a reset aligned with an appropriately costed strategy, which will also have risks. I suppose it doesn't have to be one of the other, but the balance is way off right now, and that cannot go on. The need for survival in the top division pushes the need for constant panic signings. Is there a desire to reset along the lines of our own youth system providing the basis of the first team? Who knows. Talk of a bigger league introducing a wee bit of breathing space for clubs like ourselves doesn't convince me. How big would that league need to be before we could feel relegation wasn't still a realistic possibility and gamble on change? Feels like the club is a hamster on a wheel at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 7 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: Yes investment in developing our own players is great in principle but it's also a risky strategy as from an academy squad of say 15 you might only get 1 maybe 2 that will step up to the 1st team. You can't guarantee a Johnson, Miller or Turnbull every year so no saleable assets are a distinct possibility. I agree. I stated in a reply above that such a strategy carries risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 Halliday in on 6 month loan, becoming permanent in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: The need for survival in the top division pushes the need for constant panic signings. Is there a desire to reset along the lines of our own youth system providing the basis of the first team? Who knows. Talk of a bigger league introducing a wee bit of breathing space for clubs like ourselves doesn't convince me. How big would that league need to be before we could feel relegation wasn't still a realistic possibility and gamble on change? Feels like the club is a hamster on a wheel at the moment. I've said in other posts over the past few weeks that I believe the Club to be in a bit of a long-term and rudderless holding pattern, which partially chimes with your hamster wheel comment. I ultimately do not know what the answer is here, but I do know that the current situation cannot go on as is, hence my temperered and/or clueless suggestions throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshi-1991 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 Thats...... quite pish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 Welcome to the club Andy, make sure you have a good 45 mins on debut or you will be written off as useless by some 🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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