New Investment Options

[Spiderpig]

15 minutes ago, steelboy said:

If every club and business in the land manages to do it ok it suggests it's not difficult. 

If you work in a job where a Charles Dunne type is trying to break your fingers while you're sending a email then I apologise but the competitive nature of football makes it an entirely different challenge. 

Running an £8 million business like Motherwell is easy. Season ticket sales are consistent and fuck all to do with the board. Away fans are not coming because of Jim McMahon and Douglas Dickie. Sky deal and UEFA money is completely external to the club. That's your main income streams which the board have very little impact on. 

You really do believe the shite you post don't you, constant trolling on an online forum you really need to have a good look at yourself 🤦‍♂️

[steelboy]

19 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

You really do believe the shite you post don't you, constant trolling on an online forum you really need to have a good look at yourself 🤦‍♂️

I'm replying to a question from someone who dug up a post from weeks ago. 

There are a lot of people out there who are invested into parroting the idea that sending emails and filling in forms is a talent like being a footballer or a musician but that doesn't make it true.

[Peter Millar]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

If every club and business in the land manages to do it ok it suggests it's not difficult. 

If you work in a job where a Charles Dunne type is trying to break your fingers while you're sending a email then I apologise but the competitive nature of football makes it an entirely different challenge. 

Running an £8 million business like Motherwell is easy. Season ticket sales are consistent and fuck all to do with the board. Away fans are not coming because of Jim McMahon and Douglas Dickie. Sky deal and UEFA money is completely external to the club. That's your main income streams which the board have very little impact on. 

What has Charles Dunne got to do with anything?
Really you have nothing to back up your statement that it’s easy other than generalisations?

Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. I was on holiday

[steelboy]

17 minutes ago, Peter Millar said:

What has Charles Dunne got to do with anything?
Really you have nothing to back up your statement that it’s easy other than generalisations?

Sorry I didn’t reply earlier. I was on holiday

Ok. I'll make this simple.

Adminstrative tasks which have close to 100% success rate across every business in the country cannot be considered difficult. Complicated and time consuming but not difficult. 

Football is different from compliance because it's a competitive sport with rivals who are expending efforts to ensure you don't succeed. 

[santheman]

That's the first time I've laughed at a post on here in ages.

Aye running a business of any description is dead easy.

[weeyin]

4 hours ago, steelboy said:

If every club and business in the land manages to do it ok it suggests it's not difficult.

They don't.

20% of business fail in the first year. 60% within 3 - 5 years.

Boyle bankrupted our business, and if wasn't for the fact he chose not to be repaid all he was owed from the club, we wouldn't be here.

[Peter Millar]

3 hours ago, steelboy said:

Ok. I'll make this simple.

Adminstrative tasks which have close to 100% success rate across every business in the country cannot be considered difficult. Complicated and time consuming but not difficult. 

Football is different from compliance because it's a competitive sport with rivals who are expending efforts to ensure you don't succeed. 

Ok. I’ll make this simple too. If you think close on 100% administrative tasks are completed successfully then I am happy for you but if you can back this up with hard evidence I’ll believe you. I’ll wait.

All businesses across all business sectors expend effort and resources to try and ensure they are ahead of their competitors as they identify them. It doesn’t just impact on football.

[steelboy]

So we're now 1 week from the voting opening and we still haven't seen the club's detailed proposal about issuing new shares or any kind of business plan from Erik Barmack and the Well Society haven't announced a single public meeting about the situation.

Farcical.

 

[David]

44 minutes ago, steelboy said:

So we're now 1 week from the voting opening and we still haven't seen the club's detailed proposal about issuing new shares or any kind of business plan from Erik Barmack and the Well Society haven't announced a single public meeting about the situation.

Farcical.

There's some serious work going on behind the scenes with the Society, trust me. Considering the board all has full-time jobs and lives, the fact they're doing what I've seen thus far is nothing short of amazing. 

Anyone who questions their commitment is more than welcome to get in touch and offer to help? 

[dennyc]

McMahon's masterplan.

1. Declare State of Emergency. Heap pressure on the Society Board insisting they produce a strategy that is actually his Board's responsibility. Hint at continual decline if no action taken immediately. Deny Society access to vital financial information and enforce timescales. 

2. Raise expectations amongst Society Members as to what the Society can realistically achieve.

3. Maintain silence , monitor unrest. Gloat.

4. Immediately prior to vote, declare that Barmack is the only viable show in town.

5. Ride off into the sunset having inflicted massive damage to the Well Society. Leave the Club in the hands of any investor he can convince to take on the challenge. Irrespective of whether or not a long term plan exists.

6. Sit back basking in the glowing Club Statement about his magnificent and modernist approach to Football Club leadership. 

And sadly he might pull it off.

 

[Spiderpig]

2 hours ago, David said:

There's some serious work going on behind the scenes with the Society, trust me. Considering the board all has full-time jobs and lives, the fact they're doing what I've seen thus far is nothing short of amazing. 

Anyone who questions their commitment is more than welcome to get in touch and offer to help? 

No criticism of your statement but for me it highlights the fundamental issue we have "all the board have full time jobs" for the WS to operate as it should to ensure true fan ownership the boards full time jobs should be running the WS.

Professional people in place to provide effective and professional governance hopefully the current scenario will be the catalyst for the required changes.

[David]

35 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

No criticism of your statement but for me it highlights the fundamental issue we have "all the board have full time jobs" for the WS to operate as it should to ensure true fan ownership the boards full time jobs should be running the WS.

Professional people in place to provide effective and professional governance hopefully the current scenario will be the catalyst for the required changes.

The point I'd make is that the Society board isn't tasked with running the club. That's why we have a Chairman, a CEO, and a club board.

I'd view the Society as a hands-off majority owner. For now, anyway. The people we should be quizzing on the way forward for the club are the Chairman, and the new CEO. 

I'd be interested in seeing his plan?

[dennyc]

44 minutes ago, David said:

The point I'd make is that the Society board isn't tasked with running the club. That's why we have a Chairman, a CEO, and a club board.

I'd view the Society as a hands-off majority owner. For now, anyway. The people we should be quizzing on the way forward for the club are the Chairman, and the new CEO. 

I'd be interested in seeing his plan?

Yeah, what is the Board's Plan B if the WS members reject Barmack?  I'm sure they must have one given the Chairman's comments about how investment is much needed. After all they are the professionals charged with safeguarding the Club.

[wunderwell]

4 hours ago, David said:

There's some serious work going on behind the scenes with the Society, trust me. Considering the board all has full-time jobs and lives, the fact they're doing what I've seen thus far is nothing short of amazing. 

Anyone who questions their commitment is more than welcome to get in touch and offer to help? 

You know my feelings by now and I'll try and be nice and mellow about it!
It's behind the scenes and you have seen it. Once we do see it, hopefully those frustrations go away and it's as good as you say.

It wouldn't be easy for me to help and probably many more. 3 kids and a few businesses to run at this end.
That's why I wouldn't raise a hand. I don't suspect those that did could have foreseen this though....

[Yabba's Turd]

3 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

No criticism of your statement but for me it highlights the fundamental issue we have "all the board have full time jobs" for the WS to operate as it should to ensure true fan ownership the boards full time jobs should be running the WS.

Professional people in place to provide effective and professional governance hopefully the current scenario will be the catalyst for the required changes.

Paid for by whom? WS donations? Surely a false economy until there are sufficient funds for that to work.

[Spiderpig]

12 hours ago, David said:

The point I'd make is that the Society board isn't tasked with running the club. That's why we have a Chairman, a CEO, and a club board.

I'd view the Society as a hands-off majority owner. For now, anyway. The people we should be quizzing on the way forward for the club are the Chairman, and the new CEO. 

I'd be interested in seeing his plan?

I was not suggesting the WS should run the club, although as majority shareholders there is an argument for that. I said run the WS properly, raise funds, grow the membership, fix the website, etc as up till now its been a shambles, to be exploited by the current board.

Running an organisation with a responsibility over millions in cash should not be left to volunteers, however well meaning they are.

[Spiderpig]

9 hours ago, Yabba's Turd said:

Paid for by whom? WS donations? Surely a false economy until there are sufficient funds for that to work.

By growing the membership and hence donations, seeking other revenue streams, etc. I'm not suggesting a large payroll 1 maybe 2 paid officials would be sufficient, or if that fails call steelboy he seems to think running a company etc is easy.

[StAndrew7]

17 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

I was not suggesting the WS should run the club, although as majority shareholders there is an argument for that. I said run the WS properly, raise funds, grow the membership, fix the website, etc as up till now its been a shambles, to be exploited by the current board.

Running an organisation with a responsibility over millions in cash should not be left to volunteers, however well meaning they are.

That's simply not true, though.

There are plenty of examples; organisations (churches, presbyteries etc.) who run their own organisations with similar levels of cash in them, entirely (or almost entirely) run by volunteers. I accept that a lot of them have skills and experience from their professional lives they utilise here (e.g. the treasurer being an accountant), but it doesn't mean it can't be done. 

The church just down the road from the club (Motherwell South) is a perfect example; they have raised well over £1m (probably closer to £1.5m now) and paid for and built a new sanctuary and are about to pay to renovate the remainder of the buildings as well. That project has been run entirely by volunteers and bringing in professionals to do the relevant tasks like architectural drawings, building works etc. when the time has come.

I would probably agree that more structure in terms of assigned roles is required on the WS Board, if it moves into a more prominent majority shareholder role (e.g. a treasurer with an accounting/banking background etc.) and I do think a paid/employed Society Secretary type position would make some sense. I'm not really up on my corporate law; would that mean the type of Company/Incorporation the Society is might need to change, so they can have employees?

I would say that the Society would probably be best to continue in its role as an "at length" majority owner, but with better control over the Exec Board and its members, who make the decisions on the strategic direction and so on, with the more mundane/day to day side of business dealt with by the CEO and their team.

[Kmcalpin]

I think there is some kind of middle ground here. I can see where Spiderpig, David and StAndrew7 are all coming from. The principle of the WS being run by volunteers is fine but, it does need to exert more strategic control over the club. This is entirely consistent with it being the major shareholder. To date its been far too passive, for various reasons. Thats not to say that it should run the club on a day to day basis. It shouldn't. 

Currently I think it employs 1 employee, full time or not I don't know. That perhaps needs to be increased slightly. Its simply too much for one person to handle.

[steelboy]

11 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

and I do think a paid/employed Society Secretary type position would make some sense. 

They already have this. 

The idea that the Well Society needs full time professional board members is ridiculous. No club in Scotland has that. 

[StAndrew7]

19 minutes ago, steelboy said:

They already have this. 

The idea that the Well Society needs full time professional board members is ridiculous. No club in Scotland has that. 

Yeah, I realised that shortly after I posted 😅.

[santheman]

33 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I think there is some kind of middle ground here. I can see where Spiderpig, David and StAndrew7 are all coming from. The principle of the WS being run by volunteers is fine but, it does need to exert more strategic control over the club. This is entirely consistent with it being the major shareholder. To date its been far too passive, for various reasons. Thats not to say that it should run the club on a day to day basis. It shouldn't. 

Currently I think it employs 1 employee, full time or not I don't know. That perhaps needs to be increased slightly. Its simply too much for one person to handle.

Sally (lovely lady) handles all the WS administrative duties and probably loads more tasks not on her job description.

[Mccus28]

No matter what the WS do, they won't increase the membership by a significant amount, we have a small hardcore fanbase, they may in the short-term increase it by hundreds but long-term I personally don't see it.

The WS have done a decent job so far, no more than that and if people are happy to consistantly sit bottom 6 or even be relegated then we can continue as we are.

For Motherwell to progress we NEED outside investment, maybe not the offer as it stands just now but we should be looking at ways to raise our profile abroad and at home.

I have little confidence in the WS personally no matter how well meaning they are as an entity which is why we see our own fanbase divided right now.

I am however full of optimism as we are at least having the discussion on how we move forward.

[StAndrew7]

17 minutes ago, Mccus28 said:

No matter what the WS do, they won't increase the membership by a significant amount, we have a small hardcore fanbase, they may in the short-term increase it by hundreds but long-term I personally don't see it.

The WS have done a decent job so far, no more than that and if people are happy to consistantly sit bottom 6 or even be relegated then we can continue as we are.

For Motherwell to progress we NEED outside investment, maybe not the offer as it stands just now but we should be looking at ways to raise our profile abroad and at home.

I have little confidence in the WS personally no matter how well meaning they are as an entity which is why we see our own fanbase divided right now.

I am however full of optimism as we are at least having the discussion on how we move forward.

Just to make a couple of points and ask some questions on this (also; by no means having a go here, just interested to hear your thoughts on what you've said!):

- If a couple hundred people signed up to £10/month on average, that's an extra £24k a year. Add in others who pay in a bit more, you're probably anywhere from £25k-30k increase. That's good!

- I would agree with this; they have stepped in and helped when they can but the "so far" thing is now seemingly down to being stifled by the Exec Board and others, I would argue. That means there's definitely scope for the Society to do more with a fully collaborative/bought in Exec Board and Club management structure.

- What do you define as "progress" for Motherwell? Consistently mid-table/the odd cup run and foray into Europe? If it is that, we've done that over the last 10 years. Recently we've had two/three poor seasons, down to bad decisions made at the Exec Board level in terms of managerial appointments and not replacing the CEO properly for over a year. This is not the fault of the Society.

- You've said the Society have done a decent job so far and no more, yet say you have little confidence in them; why? I assume you'd be willing to give them a chance to prove to you "wrong" as it were?

- The divided fanbase is an interesting point; I definitely think there are "sides" in this whole debacle, which is exactly what you'd anticipate given such a polarising issue, however, that's always going to be the case. There will always be people dead set against it or for it; and they tend to be the most vocal.

I would say that I was very much in the "I'm intrigued by this and interested to see what is proposed" camp before everything was published; having now considered it and everything that is continuing to come to light (check out Vietnam91's latest on P&B, it's particularly eye-opening about our Outgoing Chairman), it's absolutely not the right deal for the club. That doesn't mean there's not a "right" one out there and that it can't be found by a rejuvinated WS/Executive Board working together rather than at odds with each other.

[Mccus28]

2 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

Just to make a couple of points and ask some questions on this (also; by no means having a go here, just interested to hear your thoughts on what you've said!):

- If a couple hundred people signed up to £10/month on average, that's an extra £24k a season. Add in others who pay in a bit more, you're probably anywhere from £25k-30k increase. That's good!

- I would agree with this; they have stepped in and helped when they can but the "so far" thing is now seemingly down to being stifled by the Exec Board and others, I would argue. That means there's definitely scope for the Society to do more with a fully collaborative/bought in Exec Board and Club management structure.

- What do you define as "progress" for Motherwell? Consistently mid-table/the odd cup run and foray into Europe? If it is that, we've done that over the last 10 years. Recently we've had two/three poor seasons, down to bad decisions made at the Exec Board level in terms of managerial appointments and not replacing the CEO properly for over a year. This is not the fault of the Society.

- You've said the Society have done a decent job so far and no more, yet say you have little confidence in them; why? I assume you'd be willing to give them a chance to prove to you "wrong" as it were?

- The divided fanbase is an interesting point; I definitely think there are "sides" in this whole debacle, which is exactly what you'd anticipate given such a polarising issue, however, that's always going to be the case. There will always be people dead set against it or for it; and they tend to be the most vocal.

I would say that I was very much in the "I'm intrigued by this and interested to see what is proposed" camp before everything was published; having now considered it and everything that is continuing to come to light (check out Vietnam91's latest on P&B, it's particularly eye-opening about our Outgoing Chairman), it's absolutely not the right deal for the club. That doesn't mean there's not a "right" one out there and that it can't be found by a rejuvinated WS/Executive Board working together rather than at odds with each other.

A very eloquent response with some good points which is where the discussion should be going, on your questions :-

£25-30K isn't great but its something, Id hope with a renewed vigour we could get into 6 figures somehow with extra donations and investment.

Id say the WS need full-time employees as that way the sole focus is on driving forward rather than trying to find the time to do so.

Progress for me would be consistant top 6 and cup runs coupled with decent signings year on year.  Now I fully understand that even with major investment none of the above is guaranteed but some solid optimism every year would be nice.  You say we have achived this several times in the last 10 years but lately and certainly in the last 3 years we have regressed with football that at times has been difficult to watch.

When I say they have done a decent job, I say this due to raising the funds they did, however to caveat that, Id say it was the fanbase as a whole who were united and most entities could have done exactly the same job as the WS given the cicumstances we as a club were faced with.  I have little faith in them as they have been mostly silent for a number of years and stagnated, HOWEVER I am willing to wait and see what plans they have to drive us forward but I think some full-time workers with a degree of strength are a neccessity to have some focus.

The divided fanbase was always going to happen but the degree of venom and belittling at times has been poor to see.  We all want Motherwell to be a success story and can have a difference of opinion.