That Old Chestnut - Do We Move Or Do We Stay

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

As for the main stand, I've listened and read the details from guys on here and p&Bovril, but I just dont see how a new stadium at huge, huge cost is more viable than redoing the main stand completely at what would be a much smaller, huge cost.

The problem is that the refurbishment of Fir Park won't stop there. Once the POD is addressed then there are 3 other stands as well as assorted issues then needing addressed. That will easily run into 7 figures if not more. A veritable money pit. 

[Goggles & Flippers]

I think there is also a willful oversight that hospitality spends are on the increase and patrons demand a certain experience to justify that expense. What we offer is not amazing in 2026, by 2046 it will be archaic without looking at our target audience and adjusting our offering.

Fixing FP is just sticky plaster-ing the problem. If we take the projected £8m and £5m I outlined above as the top end of our spend would it not make more sense to put that into something new, bespoke and itself OK for 30 years before any major upgrade works?

 It's a strange one that we don't look to secure our club's future in the same we do in our own lives. I suspect very few of us live in the same place we did after moving out of our parents home.

Transitioning from renting in some cases or buying and taking on debt beyond our current income but manageable because the debt is designed to allow us to progress. We do it because we aspire to more and get our foot on the ladder. As we transition through life we upgrade often to a family home and/or to something that reflects our income and lifestyle aspirations.

I suspect the vast majority on here have taken out a mortgage with no guarantees on continued employment or security, but for Motherwell to do it is a step too far?

 

 

[0Neils40yarder]

3 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

The problem is that the refurbishment of Fir Park won't stop there. Once the POD is addressed then there are 3 other stands as well as assorted issues then needing addressed. That will easily run into 7 figures if not more. A veritable money pit. 

I dont think there is a stadium in the world that doesn't require maintenance...its just the way it is.

Im on a boat in the med just now, so apologies for short reply as im a bit pished

[Goggles & Flippers]

20 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Im on a boat in the med just now, so apologies for short reply as im a bit pished

If its a yacht then you could finance a new stadium. If it's an internal cabin on a cruise ship then enjoy your cocktails.

[0Neils40yarder]

2 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

If its a yacht then you could finance a new stadium. If it's an internal cabin on a cruise ship then enjoy your cocktails.

It was a yacht...but Im back on dry land now 

[weeyin]

11 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

It was a yacht...but Im back on dry land now 

Did you get kicked off for calling it a boat?

[0Neils40yarder]

9 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Did you get kicked off for calling it a boat?

I didnae call it any names

[Goggles & Flippers]

14 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I didnae call it any names

Following on from that table I posted on P&B, if we were to now get €6m for JT and Fadinger, those two sales and the running total, that would raise the question for me to now be "why the fuck are we staying at FP?".

[weeyin]

18 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I didnae call it any names

 

3 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Im on a boat in the med just now, so apologies for short reply as im a bit pished

 

[Inflato]

13 hours ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Following on from that table I posted on P&B, if we were to now get €6m for JT and Fadinger, those two sales and the running total, that would raise the question for me to now be "why the fuck are we staying at FP?".

I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation, especially the insight provided by yourself Mr G&F, kudos to you for this 👌

My personal preference would be to remain at Fir Park, and I don't necessarily see this as a sticking plaster, but it absolutely have to be "done right" or it would rapidly turn into a disaster. It's surely possible to build something to be proud of in the footprint of the existing POd, encompassing the necessary corporate facilities and the other value-adding amenities discussed throughout this thread.

Likewise the John Hunter. Whilst this currently has a very tight footprint, much of the land behind already belongs to the club (apologies if I'm talking bollocks), the problem lies with the school grounds... A school which is roughly 120 years old and surely due a massive refit/rebuild/relocation(!) which takes me to the local authority.

I'd *love* to think that a fan-owned Community Club would matter a lot to the local authority and that the 2 would work collectively towards the same goal. A successful football club brings money into the area and helps put the place on the map, so positive collaboration should be a no-brainer. However, unless things have changed dramatically in the past decade or so, I think MFC is way down the list of any focus and/or priority of NLC.

Moving elsewhere, and I can't think of anywhere other than Ravenscraig, will mean not only dealing with NLC, but (as other's have said) many others into the bargain... This gives me the absolute fear. It's also hard to imagine us getting anything other than a St Mirren Park affair stuck in the middle of a brownfield site where the existing amenities already seem dated. It also feels like 5-7 years away even if papers were signed today.

One thing's certain, we need a decision a plan, and good communication of both in the very near future. 

[Kmcalpin]

30 minutes ago, Inflato said:

One thing's certain, we need a decision a plan, and good communication of both in the very near future. 

I might disagree with you about which option to choose  but you're 100% right about this. We can't afford to dither and swither much longer. I'd also hope the fans will be consulted.

[Mccus28]

Ive bought tickets for the POD stand tonight so i'll give my verdict from Wishaw General when they are stitching up my legs!!!!!!!!!!

Id love to think we can do something with the current footprint and stay at Fir Park!!!!!!!

[Goggles & Flippers]

6 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I might disagree with you about which option to choose  but you're 100% right about this. We can't afford to dither and swither much longer. I'd also hope the fans will be consulted.

Something like a stadium move isn’t one for an executive board of a fan owned club alone, how can it be? It’s just as pivotal if not more so than a chancer trying to get control for the cost of two empty ginger bottles.

Where we’ll be playing football in ten years time will fully determine the direction and potential fortunes of this club for the rest of its existence.

We’re sitting on over 18m euros in transfer income In three years, sell JT as expected and we’re up over €20m. It’s unprecedented and truly transformational.

I’d flip the question round. Those reluctant to move, at what point do our coffers have to be swelled to before you get on board?

[Goggles & Flippers]

52 minutes ago, Inflato said:

Moving elsewhere, and I can't think of anywhere other than Ravenscraig, will mean not only dealing with NLC, but (as other's have said) many others into the bargain... This gives me the absolute fear.

Dealing with corporate bodies in my experience is a lot easier and less emotive than any residents association, a newly formed community action group by Karen’s and all the NIMBY’s wanting their tuppence worth.

Debates like these we point to why we support or are anti something but few add in the alternative.

For example, a £35m (plucked out of thin air before anyone holds me to it) stadium of course would have ongoing maintenance. Theres no building, garden or park that doesn’t. A new stadium is a bit like a new car, you get an MOT holiday of three years due to it being new. A new stadium would have snagging of course but with good design and keeping on top of things, free of major bills for at least 20 years off the back of it.

The issue here is with Fir Park we’re dealing a site we first used in 1895. A combination of urban sprawl and successive upgrades due to us never being overly flush (Ian St John allowed for the POD, POD funded the McLean), we’ve just tackled each project as best he could with the funds available.

For the first time in the clubs history we’re in a position to actually make a strategic decision and have the means to do it/see it through.

[joewarkfanclub]

11 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

For the first time in the clubs history we’re in a position to actually make a strategic decision and have the means to do it/see it through.

Regardless of position on whether to stay or go, this is the most exciting part for me.

I truly never thought Id ever see Motherwell Football Club do anything, other than exist hand to mouth.

The turnaround in 2 years is extraordinary.

[0Neils40yarder]

52 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Something like a stadium move isn’t one for an executive board of a fan owned club alone, how can it be? It’s just as pivotal if not more so than a chancer trying to get control for the cost of two empty ginger bottles.

Where we’ll be playing football in ten years time will fully determine the direction and potential fortunes of this club for the rest of its existence.

We’re sitting on over 18m euros in transfer income In three years, sell JT as expected and we’re up over €20m. It’s unprecedented and truly transformational.

I’d flip the question round. Those reluctant to move, at what point do our coffers have to be swelled to before you get on board?

I'll always be reluctant to move...someone mentioned further up about the nick of st mirrens stadium and I fear thats what we'd end up doing, despite your more optimistic outlook.

[0Neils40yarder]

28 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Regardless of position on whether to stay or go, this is the most exciting part for me.

I truly never thought Id ever see Motherwell Football Club do anything, other than exist hand to mouth.

The turnaround in 2 years is extraordinary.

The world is literally our oyster the now...even players we have been conversing with must be thinking to themselves '12months, there and then who knows'

[Goggles & Flippers]

6 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I'll always be reluctant to move...someone mentioned further up about the nick of st mirrens stadium and I fear thats what we'd end up doing, despite your more optimistic outlook.

I think everyone is Scottish football is fearful of a SMiSA clone. The beauty is it’s there for everyone to see and point to it being exactly what we’re not looking for.

We also have Tynecastle and can use that too to highlight some stuff you’d like to emulate, steep pitch being the major one.

I think highlighting St Mirren but overlooking Hearts is exactly the point I made in the previous post. Everyone has been very complimentary on our direction of travel, do we seriously think there’s a chance of the former over the latter?

For what it’s worth Flow was very mindful when in post and was enamoured by Aalesund’s ground. A masterplan was commissioned during his tenure and it came back with a Ravenscraig oval bowl. That is the best I could describe it when I got a five second glimpse.

[0Neils40yarder]

2 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

I think everyone is Scottish football is fearful of a SMiSA clone. The beauty is it’s there for everyone to see and point to it being exactly what we’re not looking for.

We also have Tynecastle and can use that too to highlight some stuff you’d like to emulate, steep pitch being the major one.

I think highlighting St Mirren but overlooking Hearts is exactly the point I made in the previous post. Everyone has been very complimentary on our direction of travel, do we seriously think there’s a chance of the former over the latter?

For what it’s worth Flow was very mindful when in post and was enamoured by Aalesund’s ground. A masterplan was commissioned during his tenure and it came back with a Ravenscraig oval bowl. That is the best I could describe it when I got a five second glimpse.

The differences for me between Tynie and that effort at Paisley are simply;

All new builds in scotland have gone in a very similar direction and I cant think of one that I enjoy going to, because of the atmosphere and the lack of facilties.

And...the fact Hearts have managed to completely revamp Tynie on a small footprint into the best stadium in the league, just gives more ammunition to stay put for me.

I understand the viewpoint that you've got and the considerations you've placed into fan experience at any proposed new build but I dont see it happening.

For me, we build a new main stand, utilising the footprint we have, encompassing hospitality, a proper restaurant and public house, even if that means we need to scale down the number of seats available to the paying public...not as drastic as what Queens Park done but its a thought none-the-less.

We then move onto the next stand, in much the same way we would need to continually upgrade and maintain any new build 

 

[Goggles & Flippers]

10 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

The differences for me between Tynie and that effort at Paisley are simply;

All new builds in scotland have gone in a very similar direction and I cant think of one that I enjoy going to, because of the atmosphere and the lack of facilties.

And...the fact Hearts have managed to completely revamp Tynie on a small footprint into the best stadium in the league, just gives more ammunition to stay put for me.

I understand the viewpoint that you've got and the considerations you've placed into fan experience at any proposed new build but I dont see it happening.

For me, we build a new main stand, utilising the footprint we have, encompassing hospitality, a proper restaurant and public house, even if that means we need to scale down the number of seats available to the paying public...not as drastic as what Queens Park done but its a thought none-the-less.

We then move onto the next stand, in much the same way we would need to continually upgrade and maintain any new build 

 

Is there any amount of money we could have in the bank and your be OK with a switch or is FP only regardless or anything else?

[0Neils40yarder]

4 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Is there any amount of money we could have in the bank and your be OK with a switch or is FP only regardless or anything else?

What i am probably saying is that if we are going to spend a monumental amount (30 or 40million) on a new build, then Id prefer to spend a similar amount properly renovating the stadium we've played at for decades and generations.

Maybe im a dinosaur, but I genuinely think that we can make Fir Park work for us if we invest in it properly 

[weeyin]

If there are genuinely viable options to ugrade Fir Park to a modern and sustainable stadium, that will always be my first choice.

Sadly, I'm not convinced there is a viable option, so I'm on board with a new build.

[Goggles & Flippers]

12 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

What i am probably saying is that if we are going to spend a monumental amount (30 or 40million) on a new build, then Id prefer to spend a similar amount properly renovating the stadium we've played at for decades and generations.

Maybe im a dinosaur, but I genuinely think that we can make Fir Park work for us if we invest in it properly 

A school playground, a street that cuts off the coroner of the Cooper and a couple of houses that ensure the Main stand can never stretch the full length of the pitch while sitting on a residential street for me shows no amount of money can remedy the limitations of FP.

[0Neils40yarder]

The school playground doesn't stop the east stand from functioning 

Not sure what the cooper issue is?

And as for the main stand, I dont think it needs to run full length for it to allow us to rebuild it